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Thread: Before Anyone says it/Treo 650 Bluetooth

  1. #46
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    Originally posted by AmsterdamRave
    Stand up against what? I don't think what they are doing is wrong thats my opnion and my choice just like its your choice to dislike their practices.

    You have to learn that not everyone agrees with you. Nor does everyone agree with me but thats what an opnion is called
    Why shoud the cell business be different then your ISP?

    I can buy any PC from anywhere, and use all of its manufactures abilities and functionality when connected to my ISP.

    Why do we have to buy cell phones from cell phone service providers? I don’t buy my PC from my ISP?

    I would like to see this change and I won’t mind paying full price for the device as long as I get all of its intended functionality.

    These devices are getting to complicated for cell service providers to sell, and service.

  2. #47
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    Originally posted by AmsterdamRave
    That makes no sense. If it truly was between the vendor and the customer then go to motorola yourself and have them design a phone. And also if what you say is true then they shouldnt warranty the phones,nor insure them or even subsidize the price.
    They should not do any of these things!

    The land line phones companies of yester year use to do this.
    Years ago (many) you had to rent your hardware (phone) from the phone company. This whent away. You now can buy any phone and use it in your house or business.

    The first cell service provider that saya "hey, you can buy any cell phone direct from a manufactures that supports our service" will have eveyone running to them.

  3. #48
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    Originally posted by Mark_K


    The first cell service provider that saya "hey, you can buy any cell phone direct from a manufactures that supports our service" will have eveyone running to them.
    I doubt every single customer will do that. Maybe everyone on here but not in the real world. Some people like things the way they are and once again your trying to speak for the entire population of the lower 48 states and the respective commonweath

    Your idea of customer "Education" as you call it sounds like its the reverse of what your saying verizon does but its just as bad.

    What your trying to do is force your views and opnions on all subcribers. I dont agree that VZW is doing anything wrong but i know there are people that do.

    However when it gets to the point of pushing read: Forcing technoology on customer some of which who are itimiated by things like the razr considering some people are blindly sold these phones by indirects to only discover that they dont use half the features and waisted money on something they really did not want.

    The same way you dont like want verizon to force you to do things is the same way some customers dont want technology forced down their throats just to make yourself happy.

    There has to be a middle in which a compromise develops but no you have the same Tude that you claim verizon has the same "its either my bluetooth way to the highway"

    Do you sell cars BTW? Because you have the attitude of a pushy car sales person. The type of guy who tries to force XM radio on someone when they are purchasing a car just becuase it happens to be something you enjoy. Maybe you want to create a backlash on the market.

    Or maybe you want the market flooded with high end phones that no one except for a select amount of users will buy.
    Last edited by AmsterdamRave; 04-11-2005 at 11:43 AM.
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  4. #49
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    Originally posted by AmsterdamRave
    I doubt every single customer will do that. Maybe everyone on here but not in the real world. Some people like things the way they are and once again your trying to speak for the entire population of the lower 48 states and the respective commonweath

    Your idea of customer "Education" as you call it sounds like its the reverse of what your saying verizon does but its just as bad.

    What your trying to do is force your views and opnions on all subcribers. I dont agree that VZW is doing anything wrong but i know there are people that do.

    However when it gets to the point of pushing read: Forcing technoology on customer some of which who are itimiated by things like the razr considering some people are blindly sold these phones by indirects to only discover that they dont use half the features and waisted money on something they really did not want.

    The same way you dont like want verizon to force you to do things is the same way some customers dont want technology forced down their throats just to make yourself happy.

    There has to be a middle in which a compromise develops but no you have the same Tude that you claim verizon has the same "its either my bluetooth way to the highway"

    Do you sell cars BTW? Because you have the attitude of a pushy car sales person. The type of guy who tries to force XM radio on someone when they are purchasing a car just becuase it happens to be something you enjoy. Maybe you want to create a backlash on the market.

    Or maybe you want the market flooded with high end phones that no one except for a select amount of users will buy.
    No I think almost everyone will. For example, SBC still provides phones. Do you own a phone that you purchased from your phone service provider?

    I would guess that you don’t. Why not? Is it because you can buy better phones from other manufacturers.

    Now you can respond to this and have the last word. You win.......

  5. #50
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    if DUN isn't crippled, i will crap my pants.

    a big, stinky crap, all over my pants.
    6 years on hofo.



    If Elliott Smith had tried to fake it through the day with Johnnie Walker Black instead of Red, maybe he'd still be alive today.

  6. #51
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    "RIGHT because vzn is not business to sell phones. They are in business to sell cellular service. Thats what cellular providers are in business for. The customer and the phone manufacture should have control of the phones. Vzn and any other providers shouldn't contol anything but their network. Remember these cellular providers make money while providing service over public spectrum. Ever wonder why the 3rd party providers dont sell vzn service or phones? Vzn's quest for control. Phones are nothing but CE (Consumer Electronics) devices. The consumer owns the phone, not the provider. The customer uses the phone and pays the cellular provider for the service."

    You are absolutely correct 100%. Keep in mind that those wishing this scenario should bear a few things in mind.

    If the customer and the phone manufacturer should have control of the phones then the following will logically apply.

    1) VZW or any other carrier does not subsidize the equipment in return for your contract. IE- that $250.00 VX-8000 just got marked up to full MSRP $450+. If the provider cannot allot some measure of control to ensure profitability then why subsidize it? LG for instance knows the market value of the device, they sure as heck won't sell it for less knowing your options for purchasing one became limited to one source. Heck, the price will go up even further than the existing MSRP. Bottom line is there is no free lunch; which is what 99% of US cellular subscribers expect in regard to handsets. I liken this to people expecting Direct-TV to give them $1000.00 off their brand new un-tampered plasma tv in exchange for a one year contract with discounted rates on premium channels.

    2) Your phone has a problem, the screen went blank, it drops excessive calls. Don't bother telling your carrier about it or stopping into their convienent local retail store for help. They did not sell you the device nor are the responsible for the warranty. In fact, send it back to LG for a period of 3-6 months to see what's wrong with it. Now you don't have a working cell phone and you are under contract to your provider. Too bad, they are not liable for equipment you purchased for service from a third party. The contract you signed was for service only.

    The list of pro's and con's can go on forever. You get my point I hope.

    Just playing Devil's advocate, please don't take it personally....
    It's a cell phone not a landline, deal with it................

  7. #52
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    Originally posted by SMP

    1) VZW or any other carrier does not subsidize the equipment in return for your contract. IE- that $250.00 VX-8000 just got marked up to full MSRP $450+...

    2) Your phone has a problem, the screen went blank, it drops excessive calls. Don't bother telling your carrier about it or stopping into their convienent local retail store for help. They did not sell you the device nor are the responsible for the warranty. In fact, send it back to LG for a period of 3-6 months to see what's wrong with it. Now you don't have a working cell phone and you are under contract to your provider. Too bad, they are not liable for equipment you purchased for service from a third party. The contract you signed was for service only.
    All of these arguments have their answer in current real world situations. Regarding 1), competition will force prices down. Alot of phones are exclusive to a particular carrier. The ones that aren't have quite a bit of price differential. Take a look at the price of a Treo 650 on sprint vs cingular, for example.

    The majority of the price of a phone is R&D (I worked at Nokia as an engineer - you wouldn't believe how cheap materially the phones are) - but sort of like the FDA approval of drugs, a carrier must approve a phone. There is a huge risk for the cell phone maker based on carrier rejection and hence the high cost of R&D - carriers reject ALOT of phones. Carriers are part of the PROBLEM of high cell phone cost. Untethering will make subsidies unnecessary because a) free, unlocked market on phones and b) carriers ADD to the cost of R&D.

    I'm sorry, but your point #2 is just dumb. Of course the carrier won't fix a free-market cell phone. Why would I even consider that in the scenario? Why would I ask SBC to fix my broken 900mhz cordless phone? Why would I ask my cable provider to fix my tv? Of course a service provider is not responsible for equipment they did not SELL to you. And no, since we're on the topic of untethered phones, the cell phone contract GOES AWAY, so I can use whatever provider I want, just like I can switch long distance carriers with a single phone call. I'll be happy to use my backup phone while my high-end gets repaired. Like all other consumer electronics, authorized cell phone warranty repair centers would emerge into the market reducing repair turnaround time. Plus every best-buy, Frys and circuit city would offer a $70 3-year instant replacement programs for cell phones - cheaper than cell phone "insurance" that carriers charge.

    Finally, imagine a cell phone that works with all carriers - GSM, TDMA and CDMA. It is completely feasible and an open market would be popping out such phones in no time.

    Real world examples of all other consumer products have proven consumer benefits when they are consumer-centric rather than service provider centric. Go do some reading about how not too long ago, landline phones had to be rented from the telephone company until a court ruling struck that down and opened the market. You are advocating (devil's or otherwise) to impede progress.

  8. #53
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    "All of these arguments have their answer in current real world situations. Regarding 1), competition will force prices down. Alot of phones are exclusive to a particular carrier. The ones that aren't have quite a bit of price differential. Take a look at the price of a Treo 650 on sprint vs cingular, for example.

    The majority of the price of a phone is R&D (I worked at Nokia as an engineer - you wouldn't believe how cheap materially the phones are) - but sort of like the FDA approval of drugs, a carrier must approve a phone. There is a huge risk for the cell phone maker based on carrier rejection and hence the high cost of R&D - carriers reject ALOT of phones. Carriers are part of the PROBLEM of high cell phone cost. Untethering will make subsidies unnecessary because a) free, unlocked market on phones and b) carriers ADD to the cost of R&D.

    I'm sorry, but your point #2 is just dumb. Of course the carrier won't fix a free-market cell phone. Why would I even consider that in the scenario? Why would I ask SBC to fix my broken 900mhz cordless phone? Why would I ask my cable provider to fix my tv? Of course a service provider is not responsible for equipment they did not SELL to you. And no, since we're on the topic of untethered phones, the cell phone contract GOES AWAY, so I can use whatever provider I want, just like I can switch long distance carriers with a single phone call. I'll be happy to use my backup phone while my high-end gets repaired. Like all other consumer electronics, authorized cell phone warranty repair centers would emerge into the market reducing repair turnaround time. Plus every best-buy, Frys and circuit city would offer a $70 3-year instant replacement programs for cell phones - cheaper than cell phone "insurance" that carriers charge.

    Finally, imagine a cell phone that works with all carriers - GSM, TDMA and CDMA. It is completely feasible and an open market would be popping out such phones in no time.

    Real world examples of all other consumer products have proven consumer benefits when they are consumer-centric rather than service provider centric. Go do some reading about how not too long ago, landline phones had to be rented from the telephone company until a court ruling struck that down and opened the market. You are advocating (devil's or otherwise) to impede progress."

    Call me when the shuttle lands in your back yard....

    You are asking me to compare the 650 prices between Cingular & Sprint is a perfect example. Neither customer is purchasing the handset directly from the manufacturer. They are getting subsidized from MRSP in exchange for a contract.

    Sorry, but you are wrong and I am going to bed. Argue with somebody else when it comes it simple logic.
    Last edited by SMP; 04-12-2005 at 03:28 AM.

  9. #54
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    Originally posted by AmsterdamRave
    I doubt every single customer will do that. Maybe everyone on here but not in the real world. Some people like things the way they are and once again your trying to speak for the entire population of the lower 48 states and the respective commonweath

    Your idea of customer "Education" as you call it sounds like its the reverse of what your saying verizon does but its just as bad.

    What your trying to do is force your views and opnions on all subcribers. I dont agree that VZW is doing anything wrong but i know there are people that do.

    However when it gets to the point of pushing read: Forcing technoology on customer some of which who are itimiated by things like the razr considering some people are blindly sold these phones by indirects to only discover that they dont use half the features and waisted money on something they really did not want.

    The same way you dont like want verizon to force you to do things is the same way some customers dont want technology forced down their throats just to make yourself happy.

    There has to be a middle in which a compromise develops but no you have the same Tude that you claim verizon has the same "its either my bluetooth way to the highway"

    Do you sell cars BTW? Because you have the attitude of a pushy car sales person. The type of guy who tries to force XM radio on someone when they are purchasing a car just becuase it happens to be something you enjoy. Maybe you want to create a backlash on the market.

    Or maybe you want the market flooded with high end phones that no one except for a select amount of users will buy.
    Your argument has been proven wrong many times by the real world. I give the collective majority more credit than you do. It is proven that the majority mind is alot smarter than you or I. This has nothing to do with gadget-like features, but the general consumer-centric phones that would emerge because the market would demand it. BTW, who goes to motorola and "designs" a phone? Do you go to Ford or Toyota and "design" a car? No, thank goodness. I buy the car that best fits my needs and the free market has produced cars to fit various consumer needs and wants. I shudder to think if I had to buy a car that was subsidized by my auto insurance company and consequently was designed to the insurance company's specifications and needs and not the consumers.

    It is not hofo users forcing technology on the "lower 48 states and the commonwealth". Quite the opposite - it is the marketing engine of the carriers. You've seen all the commercials, just like everyone else, touting features that no one will use. I'm a techie like everyone else here, but why the hell would I pay money every month to watch a 20 second VCAST sport clip I could watch on ESPN? Bluetooth has been argued to death, but as an example, in its full featured form, it has the potential to change the ways cell phones are used much more than video clips. It is a much more useful feature. The mass public, will gravitate to real utility over time - look at the plethora of grandmas trying to use email as an example. If a phone feature is truly useful, the public will eventually gravitate to it, no matter how technically foreign it may seem.

  10. #55
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    Call me when the shuttle lands in your back yard....

    You are asking me to compare the 650 prices between Cingular & Sprint is a perfect example. Neither customer is purchasing the handset directly from the manufacturer. They are getting subsidized from MRSP in exchange for a contract.

    Sorry, but you are wrong and I am going to bed. Argue with somebody else when it comes it simple logic. [/B]
    The 650 prices are an example of different costs for nearly identical hardware imposed by the carriers. I could care less who actually is selling me the phone. The point is that carriers are meddling with the costs, not the market. Regardless its an insignificant detail that has zero impact to counter my argument - but I'm glad you could come up with something other than the powerful counter of "call me when the shuttle lands in your back yard." Good argument. Got any more? Oh wait, "argue with somebody else when it comes to simple logic". Even better. Got any more original insults I've NEVER heard before?
    Last edited by JScoob; 04-12-2005 at 03:45 AM.

  11. #56
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    Originally posted by SMP
    . And no, since we're on the topic of untethered phones, the cell phone contract GOES AWAY,
    I find that highly unlikely that contracts will go away.

  12. #57
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    Originally posted by CowboyNYC
    A trusting and unknowledgeable consumer has allowed the cellular providers to be as they are so far

    GWTP
    So then your calling all customers who arent protesting the bluetooth issue stupid then in otherwords? Why do you think everyone has the same agenda that you do or will once they are "Educated Read: brainwashed by your propaganda.

    They are called a wireless company not service company. You liken VZW to your power company and that is the stupidist thing i have ever heard in my entire life. Next you will be calling airlines a public utlility. Your the master of spin on this board and i dont like being called stupid just because i dont agree with you.

    Oh and BTW there were alot of people who were upset by the bell breakup alot of people who did not mind getting their phones from AT&T

    But seem to think that this is what every single customer wants and once again since YOU NOR I ARE THE VOICE OF EVERY VZW SUBCRIBER STOP TRYING TO HAVE THE OPNION OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. YOUR NOT THEIR MOUTH PIECE NOT AM I
    Last edited by AmsterdamRave; 04-12-2005 at 08:47 AM.

  13. #58
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    I'm done with this issue you lost total focus for you its not about even educating the customer its an agenda driven movement to destroy VZW and just like a bible thumper you mask your real motives with spin and have an answer for everything nicely picked out studies and googling websites night and day to come back with a rebutal.

    Well have fun because while your trying to take down vzw or "vzn" for the learning impared ill be out having a life. Because there is more to life than technology.

  14. #59
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    The points have been made and made again. This thread has strayed from being productive and is now closed.

    CowboyNYC: While we appreciate other points of view, a review of your posting history shows the same Verizon rant over and over again. We understand you have a gripe about Verizon but you are taking things too far. Please tone it down or take it the Provider Rants forum.

    AmsterdamRave: Please learn to make your points without resorting to insults.
    Last edited by Moderator HF 9; 04-12-2005 at 10:32 AM.
    Keep all PHONE discussion within the Verizon Phone Discussion sub forum. We will close/move threads without notice if you do not follow the the VZW forum rules. Report inappropriate posts by clicking on the red triangle in the upper right hand corner of any post, or the orange triangle in the bottom left for Premium members.

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