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Thread: T-Mobile’s Ray predicts 5G claims will haunt rivals

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    T-Mobile’s Ray predicts 5G claims will haunt rivals

    https://www.fiercewireless.com/wirel...l-haunt-rivals



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    At recent investor events, President of Technology Neville Ray took the opportunity to slam the competition, mostly Verizon, for their 5G coverage and talk up T-Mobile’s superiority in that department. After years of leveling the playing field on LTE coverage, T-Mobile is positioned to jump ahead of both AT&T and Verizon in 5G.

    Today, he stepped it up a notch with a blog noting AT&T’s use of the “5G E” symbol, but focusing on Verizon’s use of dynamic spectrum sharing (DSS). According to Ray, DSS is useful in limited scenarios but not for providing an entire nationwide footprint. In fact, T-Mobile’s analysis of recent Ookla data shows Verizon with the slowest median 5G download speeds since October.

    “Verizon marketing their 5G as ‘5G Built Right’ is a disservice to customers who expect 5G to deliver meaningful speed and coverage at the same time,” Ray wrote. “And a woeful mismanagement of customer expectations.”

    T-Mobile launched nationwide 5G about a year ago using its 600 MHz spectrum. Since the closure of the Sprint merger on April 1, it’s been aggressively adding 2.5 GHz to its repertoire, with an average 2,000 sites a month going into the upgrade process. By the end of the year, it expects to cover 100 million people with the 2.5 GHz deployment.

    The problem is, as Ray points out relentlessly, Verizon’s mmWave service is only available on a very limited basis. Verizon announced two more UW cities on Friday – Akron, Ohio, and Nashville, Tennessee – bringing the UW markets up to 57 with the goal of being in parts of 60 markets before the end of the year. But that coverage is still available just 0.6% of the time, Ray says.






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    I get what he's saying, but this statement “Verizon marketing their 5G as ‘5G Built Right’ is a disservice to customers who expect 5G to deliver meaningful speed" can also be applied to the vast majority of tmobile 5g customers who are stuck on lowband 5G as well. I get that this will change when tmobile does deploy their mid band, but, that isn't there yet for the majority of tmobile 5G customers yet. Overall I think his assessment is pretty accurate, but, there definitely is some turning a blind eye homerism going on in his statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theghostlad82 View Post
    I get what he's saying, but this statement “Verizon marketing their 5G as ‘5G Built Right’ is a disservice to customers who expect 5G to deliver meaningful speed" can also be applied to the vast majority of tmobile 5g customers who are stuck on lowband 5G as well. I get that this will change when tmobile does deploy their mid band, but, that isn't there yet for the majority of tmobile 5G customers yet. Overall I think his assessment is pretty accurate, but, there definitely is some turning a blind eye homerism going on in his statement.
    I mean.. and average of ~100-150Mbps in T-Mobile lowband areas, vs an average of 20-60Mbps on Verizon DSS 5G

    I've been testing both as a dual sim iteration in my 12 Pro Max, and Verizon DSS 5G is just a joke outside of UWB coverage.

    That 1+Gbps is nice where i can get it, but if i start moving around, step behind a wall, heavy tree, or even a metal box (such as a PO Box) - the speeds just drop off and mmWave dissapears.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    I mean.. and average of ~100-150Mbps in T-Mobile lowband areas, vs an average of 20-60Mbps on Verizon DSS 5G

    I've been testing both as a dual sim iteration in my 12 Pro Max, and Verizon DSS 5G is just a joke outside of UWB coverage.

    That 1+Gbps is nice where i can get it, but if i start moving around, step behind a wall, heavy tree, or even a metal box (such as a PO Box) - the speeds just drop off and mmWave dissapears.
    Where do you come up with the average of 100-150 in tmobile lowband areas? Even in the ookla results Neville mentions, tmobile averages 64 down while verizon averages 60. To be completely honest, ooklas results show all 3 carriers performing pretty much the same with 5G download speeds. There isn't much difference between at&ts high of 76, and Verizon's low of 60. This will likely change once tmobile does get midband up and running in more areas, verizon and even at&t just can't compete with tmobile on midband spectrum holdings.
    Last edited by Theghostlad82; 11-23-2020 at 10:03 PM.

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    What is interesting...At&ts 5Ge where I am is at least as fast as T-Mobile's LTE, and often as fast on download as T-Mobile's 5G in many locations. I've hit +330Mbps on At&t 5Ge. Often T-Mobile's 5g hits that similar speed. This is mostly due to TMobile often having 'only' 35Mhz of spectrum available on LTE + 10MHz on n71. Where I am, Att has 20MHz of pcs, 20Mhz of B12, 5Mhz of AWS, 10Mhz of WCS, 10Mhz of B14. B5 has been refarmed for 5g if I'm not mistaken

    Sprints B41 alone if deployed well, would give better speeds than current 5g. 3CA 20x20


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    Quote Originally Posted by Theghostlad82 View Post
    Where do you come up with the average of 100-150 in tmobile lowband areas? Even in the ookla results Neville mentions, tmobile averages 64 down while verizon averages 60. To be completely honest, ooklas results show all 3 carriers performing pretty much the same with 5G download speeds. There isn't much difference between at&ts high of 76, and Verizon's low of 60. This will likely change once tmobile does get midband up and running in more areas, verizon and even at&t just can't compete with tmobile on midband spectrum holdings.
    Average will cover.. average rates from poorest to strongest, areas with limited spectrum to areas with a lot.. and similarly, areas with empty network to congested.

    Average will typically be lower than many results posted, seen. On 5g SA only, I'll be lucky to pass 120Mbps. Often, it will be 20-30, as there are few sites, and a large area. Once iPhone 12 is in large numbers, speeds on 5g may drop until n41 is in large numbers.

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    In fact, T-Mobile’s analysis of recent Ookla data shows Verizon with the slowest median 5G download speeds since October.
    To be fair, when you're just lighting up your widespread (but relatively slow, compared to mmwave) low band 5G, it's natural that median speeds are going to drop quite a bit compared to when you're only 5G coverage was fast but limited coverage mmwave 5G.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theghostlad82 View Post
    Where do you come up with the average of 100-150 in tmobile lowband areas? Even in the ookla results Neville mentions, tmobile averages 64 down while verizon averages 60. To be completely honest, ooklas results show all 3 carriers performing pretty much the same with 5G download speeds. There isn't much difference between at&ts high of 76, and Verizon's low of 60. This will likely change once tmobile does get midband up and running in more areas, verizon and even at&t just can't compete with tmobile on midband spectrum holdings.
    I'm going by my numbers flying all over the country doing dual SIM with verizon and T-Mobile this month.

    I've seen consistently 100-150Mbps on T-Mobile, and Verizon has been all over the place 20-50Mbps is normal, with some ~100Mbps sprinkled in.

    This has been across about 15 different cities i've been able to test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    I'm going by my numbers flying all over the country doing dual SIM with verizon and T-Mobile this month.

    I've seen consistently 100-150Mbps on T-Mobile, and Verizon has been all over the place 20-50Mbps is normal, with some ~100Mbps sprinkled in.

    This has been across about 15 different cities i've been able to test.
    I would assume that you use the ookla speed test to find your speeds. This would mean then in a lot of areas people are seeing well under that to make their national average 64. If you are only seeing 20-30 on verizon, this would also mean many areas on verizon are seeing well above that to make their average 60. This is the issue with using anecdotal evidence to make blanket claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by formercanuck View Post
    Average will cover.. average rates from poorest to strongest, areas with limited spectrum to areas with a lot.. and similarly, areas with empty network to congested.

    Average will typically be lower than many results posted, seen. On 5g SA only, I'll be lucky to pass 120Mbps. Often, it will be 20-30, as there are few sites, and a large area. Once iPhone 12 is in large numbers, speeds on 5g may drop until n41 is in large numbers.

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    This is true and really was the point I was trying to make, you just did it better lol. it's hard for someone to argue tmobiles 5g speeds average 100-150 down when data shows otherwise. For an example if you take 4 tests from across the country, and one hits 125, and the other 3 hit 25, your average is 50, but 75% of your users are seeing well below that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theghostlad82 View Post
    I would assume that you use the ookla speed test to find your speeds. This would mean then in a lot of areas people are seeing well under that to make their national average 64. If you are only seeing 20-30 on verizon, this would also mean many areas on verizon are seeing well above that to make their average 60. This is the issue with using anecdotal evidence to make blanket claims.
    I use that as well, but at the end of the day.. I've been to 16 cities (as of today) so far this month and stayed the night in a downtown location.. and these are the results i've seen.

    at the end of the day.. Verizon DSS is a joke, and as T-Mobile gets more n41 online.. they'll have nothing to answer for it (until they get C-Band, and actually do something with it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    I use that as well, but at the end of the day.. I've been to 16 cities (as of today) so far this month and stayed the night in a downtown location.. and these are the results i've seen.

    at the end of the day.. Verizon DSS is a joke, and as T-Mobile gets more n41 online.. they'll have nothing to answer for it (until they get C-Band, and actually do something with it)
    As others have seen slower results. Again, this is what's called anecdotal evidence. It's not based on any factual data, and is your own limited observations with your own biased thrown in.

    The hard data shows there isn't much of an actual difference between the 5g networks speed wise on a national average. There will be almost zero user difference between 76 down and 60 down. You can have different experiences in different places, and can personally prefer one over the other, nothing wrong with that, but to claim tmobile averages 100-150 down on 5g is highly incorrect, there is zero evidence to back up this claim. Maybe in the future that changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theghostlad82 View Post
    As others have seen slower results. Again, this is what's called anecdotal evidence. It's not based on any factual data, and is your own limited observations with your own biased thrown in.

    The hard data shows there isn't much of an actual difference between the 5g networks speed wise on a national average. There will be almost zero user difference between 76 down and 60 down. You can have different experiences in different places, and can personally prefer one over the other, nothing wrong with that, but to claim tmobile averages 100-150 down on 5g is highly incorrect, there is zero evidence to back up this claim. Maybe in the future that changes.
    Well at the end of the day, if i've been able to replicate this in 16 different cities.. then it's exactly what I expect to happen everywhere else.

    It's not even "bias" as this is on my gUDP line that i've had active with Verizon since my BlackBerry Curve in the mid 2000s, I do want Verizon to get better as well, but they've only lit up DSS to keep customers from calling in because their friends on AT&T and T-Mobile see 5G indoors, but they can only get it on a certain street corner.

    I'm more disappointed in Verizon than anything due to the internal arrogance that's now coming back to bite them in the ***.

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    Except actual hard data from ookla, which tmobile uses as a reference themselves, disagrees with your anecdotal evidence that it's 100-150 down everywhere.

    It is also hard to claim there is no bias, then go into a story about how disappointed you are in them. That's literally a personal biased opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    Well at the end of the day, if i've been able to replicate this in 16 different cities.. then it's exactly what I expect to happen everywhere else.

    It's not even "bias" as this is on my gUDP line that i've had active with Verizon since my BlackBerry Curve in the mid 2000s, I do want Verizon to get better as well, but they've only lit up DSS to keep customers from calling in because their friends on AT&T and T-Mobile see 5G indoors, but they can only get it on a certain street corner.

    I'm more disappointed in Verizon than anything due to the internal arrogance that's now coming back to bite them in the ***.
    Last edited by Theghostlad82; 11-24-2020 at 10:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theghostlad82 View Post
    As others have seen slower results......
    I haven't been quoting any of my speed tests because:
    1) I know that T-Mobile has not fully deployed all their spectrum in my market. Not by a long shot.
    2) Until quite recently, I was using a phone with only 2CA.

    So, my results would not look like others' results.
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