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Thread: The 5G lie: The network of the future is still slow

  1. #61
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    OK I do have my concerns now. Found this article which is a bit old but interesting info on how DSS actually works. The thing I had overlooked personally, the 4G system has 20-25% overhead (pilot, control channel, synchronization, etc.), a 5G system it's been reduced to about 14%. But, with DSS the channel needs both sets of most of those pilot, synchronization, etc. channels, they conclude in the article that DSS systems will have 10-20% overhead.

    That could be a good reason for VZW to wait until towards the end of the year, the simple reason that there'll be far more 5G phones in service then, if you had 10% overhead but 30% gain from 5G devices, you'd break even and start gaining capacity at around 33% 5G devices.

    One strategy I could see, it could make sense to hand-tune sites that are heavily loaded, adding 5G capacity (and removing 4G capacity) 5 or 10mhz at a time as the 5G usage increases over time; while letting DSS take over on sites that are not as heavily loaded, so both 5G and 4G users can get far more speed than they would otherwise if the bands were split between the two.

    Apparently AT&T began running some DSS in June, in parts of Texas and Florida. I haven't seen a peep in AT&T forum discussing it, in other markets it's like 10mhz of band 5 LTE was reduced to 5mhz, and 5mhz of n5 5G turned on. I have no idea how you'd be able to tell, though, even with a high speed test it could be either DSS 5G or 5mhz of 5G aggregated with a bunch of 4G spectrum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwertz View Post
    .....That could be a good reason for VZW to wait until towards the end of the year, the simple reason that there'll be far more 5G phones in service then,......
    All in all, it would have been much better if DSS had been baked into 5G than added on as an afterthought. It's sort of like ER-GSM. Yes it works but the costs are incredible. It would have been better if GSM's designers had considered that someone might want to use a cell phone at a range of more than 36 km. It would also have been good for 5G's designers to understand that a carrier might be spectrum constrained and want to run both LTE & 5G in the same channel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRNewcomb View Post
    All in all, it would have been much better if DSS had been baked into 5G than added on as an afterthought. It's sort of like ER-GSM. Yes it works but the costs are incredible. It would have been better if GSM's designers had considered that someone might want to use a cell phone at a range of more than 36 km. It would also have been good for 5G's designers to understand that a carrier might be spectrum constrained and want to run both LTE & 5G in the same channel.
    Bingo.. this is why AT&T has not bothered with it yet, and Verizon is dragging *** on releasing it as well. The trade offs simply are not worth it for the amount of 5G hardware out right now.

    When the new iPhone gets released and a meaningful amount of 5G phones hit the network... I’m betting that’ll be when it’s flipped on.
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    I'll be curious as to what bands the next iPhone will have. This will be part of what Verizon will be working to deploy. IPhone 5g will be a big deal, so carriers abd Apple have to do it right.

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    Bingo.. this is why AT&T has not bothered with it yet
    Actually, per this article from June, "AT&T has turned on dynamic spectrum sharing in parts of Texas and Florida." Read this a few days ago and it was news to me, didn't see a peep about it in the AT&T howardfourm or anything (maybe these are test markets? It's one thing to have some vendor specs or lab tests, a whole 'nother kettle of fish to have network performance data from a live network.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwertz View Post
    Actually, per this article from June, "AT&T has turned on dynamic spectrum sharing in parts of Texas and Florida." Read this a few days ago and it was news to me, didn't see a peep about it in the AT&T howardfourm or anything (maybe these are test markets? It's one thing to have some vendor specs or lab tests, a whole 'nother kettle of fish to have network performance data from a live network.)
    It flew under the radar.

    DSS Live in Parts of North Texas
    https://www.howardforums.com/showpost.php?p=17135986


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    If T-Mobile had a DSS testbed running somewhere in North Dakota, would anyone know? I mean, unless they announced it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by @TheRealDanny View Post
    It flew under the radar.

    DSS Live in Parts of North Texas
    https://www.howardforums.com/showpost.php?p=17135986


    So it was live in North Texas in June. However no another announcements since? The article did say: “as we continue our rollout, we will continue to announce 5G market launches when available.”

    Could it be possible that when it was live in North Texas that AT&T had the same issues T-Mobile did and that's why there haven't been any new announcements in over three months?

    Probably not as there are those that say that Verizon will have a nationwide DSS network in 60 or 90 or 100 days---somewhere in there. Must be sound technology and T-Mobile CTO is just spewing propaganda as he has been accused by the Verizon supporters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    So it was live in North Texas in June. However no another announcements since? The article did say: “as we continue our rollout, we will continue to announce 5G market launches when available.”

    Could it be possible that when it was live in North Texas that AT&T had the same issues T-Mobile did and that's why there haven't been any new announcements in over three months?

    Probably not as there are those that say that Verizon will have a nationwide DSS network in 60 or 90 or 100 days---somewhere in there. Must be sound technology and T-Mobile CTO is just spewing propaganda as he has been accused by the Verizon supporters.


    Some users just can’t accept T-Mobile improving every day and now they are making excuses for there beloved carriers falling behind.
    Last edited by Serial Port; 09-23-2020 at 09:03 AM. Reason: edited insulting comment

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    "Beloved" carrier? I'd consider all carriers to be a utility/commodity/dumb pipe that I pay for service. Ill stick to my "I use it as it works for me and currently gives me the best value"

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    Quote Originally Posted by formercanuck View Post
    "Beloved" carrier? I'd consider all carriers to be a utility/commodity/dumb pipe that I pay for service. Ill stick to my "I use it as it works for me and currently gives me the best value"

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    Hey, I remember the days I worked at the carrier (Including the one being posted about here) and lived/breathed it. The kool-aid is just astounding haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by formercanuck View Post
    "Beloved" carrier? I'd consider all carriers to be a utility/commodity/dumb pipe that I pay for service. Ill stick to my "I use it as it works for me and currently gives me the best value"
    All wireless carriers suck, the trick is to find one that sucks in a way you can live with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRNewcomb View Post
    All wireless carriers suck, the trick is to find one that sucks in a way you can live with.
    T-Mobile has changed the wireless landscape and the duopoly just can not cope with a strong carrier in there league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    So it was live in North Texas in June. However no another announcements since? The article did say: “as we continue our rollout, we will continue to announce 5G market launches when available.”

    Could it be possible that when it was live in North Texas that AT&T had the same issues T-Mobile did and that's why there haven't been any new announcements in over three months?

    Probably not as there are those that say that Verizon will have a nationwide DSS network in 60 or 90 or 100 days---somewhere in there. Must be sound technology and T-Mobile CTO is just spewing propaganda as he has been accused by the Verizon supporters.
    More likely than that is the fact that you need 10x10 MHz in FDD to utilize DSS. AT&T doesn’t own both sides of CLR in the vast majority of the country, so they’re limited to 5x5 MHz NR. The other 5x5 MHz lives on UMTS, and the other 2.5x2.5 MHz is likely unused.

    I think— correct me if I’m wrong, Neville was referring to TDD DSS... which is far more complicated and has far more capacity loss than FDD DSS. There’s a lot of weird PRB disguising going on as it’s done in time blocks as opposed to FDD where you’re given specific channels for DL and UL. T-Mobile doesn’t really need to utilize DSS, seeing as they have 160+ MHz across most of the country.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeuten View Post
    I think— correct me if I’m wrong, Neville was referring to TDD DSS... which is far more complicated and has far more capacity loss than FDD DSS.
    It wasn't really clear if we was talking about TDD or FDD in February when his comments were made on the investor call as described here:

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/...y-hog/2020/02/

    “We’re seeing as we learn more that, as you deploy DSS it kind of eats away the net capacity of the shared radio. And if you rush into that now, some of the early rollouts and work-arounds and pieces that we’ve seen are pretty corrosive and they would suck up capacity just by rolling out the feature,”

    Keep in mind, T-Mobile was trying to implement the technology themselves and saw issues. It's not like they were just bad mouthing technology that Verizon had planned to implement.

    The fact that DSS doesn't seem to have been widely deployed in September by AT&T or Verizon would seem to add some credibility to the statements that Neville made in February.

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