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Thread: New T-Mobile Poised to take the 5G Network Crown

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    New T-Mobile Poised to take the 5G Network Crown

    Loved this article that said what I been saying will happen when T-Mobile gets that Sprint spectrum. T-Mobile’s 5G is going to be fast, deep bandwidth with a roabust nationwide 5G network.

    Net T-Mobile Poised to take the 5G Network Crown https://www.fiercewireless.com/opera...-network-crown.

    Soon after the transaction closes, T-Mobile will start deploying 60 MHz of fallow 2.5 GHz spectrum across its ~70,000 cell sites. In addition, it will deploy its 600 MHz, 700 MHz, PCS and AWS spectrum on the 12,000 Sprint sites that it retains, according to analysts at New Street Research, which recently published a detailed 41-page analysis on the New T-Mobile.

    “Deploying the 2.5 GHz with 5G will also materially increase the performance of the network, giving T-Mobile a strong lead over AT&T and Verizon and improving the value of their offer relative to competitors,” the New Street analysts wrote
    .“

    The biggest issue is the price of the 5G phones that will slow things down. However I expect a lot of people with the new 5G Flagship phones will migrate to T-Mobile to get a useable 5G experience.
    Last edited by shilohcane; 03-09-2020 at 08:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shilohcane View Post
    Loved this article that said what I been saying will happen when T-Mobile gets that Sprint spectrum. T-Mobile’s 5G is going to be fast, deep bandwidth with a roabust nationwide 5G network.

    Net T-Mobile Poised to take the 5G Network Crown https://www.fiercewireless.com/opera...-network-crown.

    Soon after the transaction closes, T-Mobile will start deploying 60 MHz of fallow 2.5 GHz spectrum across its ~70,000 cell sites. In addition, it will deploy its 600 MHz, 700 MHz, PCS and AWS spectrum on the 12,000 Sprint sites that it retains, according to analysts at New Street Research, which recently published a detailed 41-page analysis on the New T-Mobile.

    “Deploying the 2.5 GHz with 5G will also materially increase the performance of the network, giving T-Mobile a strong lead over AT&T and Verizon and improving the value of their offer relative to competitors,” the New Street analysts wrote
    .“
    The biggest issue is the price of the 5G phones that will slow things down. However I expect a lot of people with the new 5G Flagship phones will migrate to T-Mobile to get a useable 5G experience.
    If only T-Mobile did corporate accounts. For now, I can get a Samsung S20 5G for $449 at work, $599 for S20 5G+ and $749 for S20 Ultra 5G... on AT&T , $699/$899 through Verizon, and no 5G devices on Sprint.
    AT&T... your world, throttled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by formercanuck View Post
    If only T-Mobile did corporate accounts. For now, I can get a Samsung S20 5G for $449 at work, $599 for S20 5G+ and $749 for S20 Ultra 5G... on AT&T , $699/$899 through Verizon, and no 5G devices on Sprint.
    Maybe I am wrong but didn’t you buy the OnePlus Pro 5G McLaren?

    If you did T-Mobile will give you a $500 trade in on it. I have the same deal for my S9 that only cost me about $500 after the Costco Rebate.

    https://www.t-mobile.com/devices/new...-s20-5g-phones

    I still am going to wait for lower prices. I wish that Jet1000 would tell us about his new G20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shilohcane View Post
    I wish that Jet1000 would tell us about his new S20.
    I'm very pleased with the S20 Ultra. The screen is amazing. I love the access to 5G and seeing how much faster the speeds are than 4G LTE at the same location. The processor seems faster than my previous phone too.

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    They've got a good spectrum position now with the 2.5ghz spectrum, which is well suited for 5G, but they're a decade out from matching AT&T and Verizon coverage, and that's $200B each of network CAPEX that will be spent and deployed in the meantime. By that point, there will be CBRS and likely C-Band spectrum as well, and probably a few hundred thousand small cells deployed at a minimum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shilohcane View Post
    The biggest issue is the price of the 5G phones that will slow things down. However I expect a lot of people with the new 5G Flagship phones will migrate to T-Mobile to get a useable 5G experience.
    Yeah right. People who pay more for a better quality network are going to stay on the better quality network unless T-Mobile offers some really good deals to switch amidst all the turmoil from the transition. T-Mobile has to be careful not to hike prices too much in 3 years when the big price hike comes, as there's no way they will be caught up to AT&T and Verizon by then.

    Churn will likely modestly increase for all three carriers due to the turmoil that this merger creates in the industry.

    The big question is how home internet access, whether via n41, via mmWave, or eventually via CBRS/C-Band plays out, as that is the next big growth market for all 3 carriers.

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    This statement from the article really has me thinking about the combination of the new 2.5 GHz split between TDD on Band 41 with better download speed and the rest of the 2.5 GHz on FDD on Band 7 with a little more distance plus improved upload speed.

    Another thing going for it in the spectrum realm: T-Mobile confirmed to Fierce that should the merger close, New T-Mobile will have spectrum assets for both FDD and TDD operations, and will use both. That might sound like a no-brainer, but it’s emblematic of its spectrum position.

    “TDD is the future,” said Bill Ho, principal at 556 Ventures, noting that 5G is the first time that TDD is in the lead. In generations past, the U.S. was predominantly stuck on FDD—with the exception of Sprint—while other parts of the world were quicker to use TDD. Massive MIMO, which works best with TDD, enabled Sprint to introduce 5G sooner rather than later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shilohcane View Post
    This statement from the article really has me thinking about the combination of the new 2.5 GHz split between TDD on Band 41 with better download speed and the rest of the 2.5 GHz on FDD on Band 7 with a little more distance plus improved upload speed.
    I don't think there's been any indication of B7 being used in the US?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoxFan76 View Post
    Yeah right. People who pay more for a better quality network are going to stay on the better quality network unless T-Mobile offers some really good deals to switch amidst all the turmoil from the transition. T-Mobile has to be careful not to hike prices too much in 3 years when the big price hike comes, as there's no way they will be caught up to AT&T and Verizon by then.

    Churn will likely modestly increase for all three carriers due to the turmoil that this merger creates in the industry.

    The big question is how home internet access, whether via n41, via mmWave, or eventually via CBRS/C-Band plays out, as that is the next big growth market for all 3 carriers.
    I mean, AT&T has been pretty good quality.. but not overly much more "quality" than my T-Mobile line, and Verizon forgetaboutit when it comes to congested/crowded areas right now - they screwed themselves in mid/low band position.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoxFan76 View Post
    They've got a good spectrum position now with the 2.5ghz spectrum, which is well suited for 5G, but they're a decade out from matching AT&T and Verizon coverage, and that's $200B each of network CAPEX that will be spent and deployed in the meantime. By that point, there will be CBRS and likely C-Band spectrum as well, and probably a few hundred thousand small cells deployed at a minimum.
    They're definitely not a "decade out" from matching coverage at all. If they decide to be REALLY aggressive... with AT&T and Verizon both selling most of their tower assets, T-Mobile could have it done in 1-2yrs if they choose to spend the money and equipment is available.

    Based on what T-Mobile went from 2014-2018, I would not put it past them to offer some more notes and just do it to be "done"

    Quote Originally Posted by shilohcane View Post
    This statement from the article really has me thinking about the combination of the new 2.5 GHz split between TDD on Band 41 with better download speed and the rest of the 2.5 GHz on FDD on Band 7 with a little more distance plus improved upload speed.

    Another thing going for it in the spectrum realm: T-Mobile confirmed to Fierce that should the merger close, New T-Mobile will have spectrum assets for both FDD and TDD operations, and will use both. That might sound like a no-brainer, but it’s emblematic of its spectrum position.

    “TDD is the future,” said Bill Ho, principal at 556 Ventures, noting that 5G is the first time that TDD is in the lead. In generations past, the U.S. was predominantly stuck on FDD—with the exception of Sprint—while other parts of the world were quicker to use TDD. Massive MIMO, which works best with TDD, enabled Sprint to introduce 5G sooner rather than later.
    It would make sense to do 60MHz TDD 5G, and 60MHz FDD LTE to get better range from the 2.5GHz.. OR just do like AT&T does and just pair the upstream with say, PCS/AWS so they can set the upstream so low on 2500MHz it would essentially be just downlink spectrum at that point.
    Verizon: Grandfathered UDP
    T-Mobile: Magenta Amplified (airline employee plan)
    AT&T: Premium & More w/ Free 100Mbps VDSL2 "for life"
    Sprint: Premium Unlimited (for 100GB hotspot!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    I mean, AT&T has been pretty good quality.. but not overly much more "quality" than my T-Mobile line, and Verizon forgetaboutit when it comes to congested/crowded areas right now - they screwed themselves in mid/low band position.
    In my experience, Verizon definitely has congestion issues, and some weak spots due to their legacy as an 850mhz CDMA carrier, but overall, they have a lot of coverage in a lot of places, and even when they have a lot of congestion, as long as you aren't on a depri plan, you'll have working data, if it's a bit sluggish. AT&T has a great spectrum position, and also has a lot of coverage in a lot of places. T-Mobile- not so much. They have generally decent coverage, but often have coverage holes here and there, or rely too heavily on roaming, leaving prepaid plans without roaming out in the cold. I'm both impressed by how far T-Mobile has come, and rather unimpressed by how they under-performed compared to AT&T, even in areas where they are supposed to be strong.

    They're definitely not a "decade out" from matching coverage at all. If they decide to be REALLY aggressive... with AT&T and Verizon both selling most of their tower assets, T-Mobile could have it done in 1-2yrs if they choose to spend the money and equipment is available.

    Based on what T-Mobile went from 2014-2018, I would not put it past them to offer some more notes and just do it to be "done"
    There are a couple of issues. For one, the predecessors of AT&T and Verizon have been building their networks since the 1980's, with tower projects and sites sometimes taking 3-5 years to complete. T-Mobile has so much on their plate right now, that they can't manage to combine their 8 networks into 2 and expand coverage. And on top of that, they're going to have to go back and re-do a lot of the coverage that they built out in the past 6 years if they want to compete directly with AT&T or Verizon, as a lot of rural areas are garbage. T-Mobile built out the towers too far apart, creating paper-thin coverage that drops out all over the place, and they didn't deploy most of their spectrum. Large parts of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and elsewhere are networks intended to show coverage on a national map, not a serious wireless network.

    I think it will take 3 years to get through the bulk of the network integration, and even if they do network rebuilding in the rural areas, and tackle new coverage expansions, they're looking at 5-8 years MINIMUM to get to where AT&T and Verizon are today. But wait. AT&T is building out FirstNET, including to some places that have never had wireless service, or have very poor service today. AT&T has been building out like crazy, and that's another few years worth of work at a minimum. But on top of that, in the next decade, AT&T and Verizon will each spend about $200B of CAPEX on their networks, so T-Mobile will have that much further to catch up. T-Mobile has an advantage in that the 2.5ghz spectrum gives them a less capital-intensive way to deploy 5G, but that only goes so far in helping them everywhere else.

    It would make sense to do 60MHz TDD 5G, and 60MHz FDD LTE to get better range from the 2.5GHz.. OR just do like AT&T does and just pair the upstream with say, PCS/AWS so they can set the upstream so low on 2500MHz it would essentially be just downlink spectrum at that point.
    I think the latter would make more sense, as upload just isn't used that much, especially in mobile. It does change a bit if they want to offer home internet over the same system.

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    I wonder who bestows the "Wireless Crown"? Is there a Pope or Archbishop of wireless?
    Donald Newcomb

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRNewcomb View Post
    I wonder who bestows the "Wireless Crown"? Is there a Pope or Archbishop of wireless?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoxFan76 View Post
    In my experience, Verizon definitely has congestion issues, and some weak spots due to their legacy as an 850mhz CDMA carrier, but overall, they have a lot of coverage in a lot of places, and even when they have a lot of congestion, as long as you aren't on a depri plan, you'll have working data, if it's a bit sluggish. AT&T has a great spectrum position, and also has a lot of coverage in a lot of places. T-Mobile- not so much. They have generally decent coverage, but often have coverage holes here and there, or rely too heavily on roaming, leaving prepaid plans without roaming out in the cold. I'm both impressed by how far T-Mobile has come, and rather unimpressed by how they under-performed compared to AT&T, even in areas where they are supposed to be strong.



    There are a couple of issues. For one, the predecessors of AT&T and Verizon have been building their networks since the 1980's, with tower projects and sites sometimes taking 3-5 years to complete. T-Mobile has so much on their plate right now, that they can't manage to combine their 8 networks into 2 and expand coverage. And on top of that, they're going to have to go back and re-do a lot of the coverage that they built out in the past 6 years if they want to compete directly with AT&T or Verizon, as a lot of rural areas are garbage. T-Mobile built out the towers too far apart, creating paper-thin coverage that drops out all over the place, and they didn't deploy most of their spectrum. Large parts of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and elsewhere are networks intended to show coverage on a national map, not a serious wireless network.

    I think it will take 3 years to get through the bulk of the network integration, and even if they do network rebuilding in the rural areas, and tackle new coverage expansions, they're looking at 5-8 years MINIMUM to get to where AT&T and Verizon are today. But wait. AT&T is building out FirstNET, including to some places that have never had wireless service, or have very poor service today. AT&T has been building out like crazy, and that's another few years worth of work at a minimum. But on top of that, in the next decade, AT&T and Verizon will each spend about $200B of CAPEX on their networks, so T-Mobile will have that much further to catch up. T-Mobile has an advantage in that the 2.5ghz spectrum gives them a less capital-intensive way to deploy 5G, but that only goes so far in helping them everywhere else.
    You are totally forgetting: AT&T and Verizon sold their tower assets to Crown Castle and American Tower - that right there gives T-Mobile a huge leg up time wise. All they have to do is get space on the ALREADY BUILT cell sites, which cuts out years, and with contiguous B71, they actually have low band to compete with as well, so they can blanket a large area with ~35MHz to start, then add "layers" to the coverage cake as needed. 700MHz 5x5MHz just was not enough to make it super worth it for rural buildouts, but now they have the spectrum to do it B71 will be key here.

    Also, Verizon - on my data line which has "no" depri level (it's the old gUDP plan that still has a "minutes" bucket)... Data is not only sluggish, it's unbearable to a point things will simply not load and I cannot transfer files at times. I experience this quite often in downtown areas, hotels, airports, etc.. That's actually what made me give AT&T a try again, as T-Mobile has congestion issues in certain parts of Chicago thanks to I assume MetroPCS customers, and Verizon is trash when I travel for work.

    AT&T has been *fairly* solid in my travels, but T-Mobile as of late has been on par when traveling around for the most part, and has improved in the year that I kinda stopped messing with it (and they sold me unlimited LTE tethering to boot)

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    You are totally forgetting: AT&T and Verizon sold their tower assets to Crown Castle and American Tower - that right there gives T-Mobile a huge leg up time wise. ......
    Then they turned around and set up a new company to build towers when the tower companies started turning the screws as existing leases expired. The tower companies are sharks who have their own duoploy. Once the promotional first lease expires and you have to either re-up or clear out, the gloves come off and the prices go up.

    https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/13/...w-cell-towers/

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    You are totally forgetting: AT&T and Verizon sold their tower assets to Crown Castle and American Tower - that right there gives T-Mobile a huge leg up time wise. All they have to do is get space on the ALREADY BUILT cell sites, which cuts out years, and with contiguous B71, they actually have low band to compete with as well, so they can blanket a large area with ~35MHz to start, then add "layers" to the coverage cake as needed. 700MHz 5x5MHz just was not enough to make it super worth it for rural buildouts, but now they have the spectrum to do it B71 will be key here.
    I disagree on a few points. While it is faster than building their own sites, not all sites have the physical capability to have additional carriers added, or have to be totally rebuilt to do so. Sites on other structures are also different, as well as in National Parks and elsewhere. There's all sorts of obstacles to building towers, so it takes time and money. A lot of areas don't have adequate backhaul, an area where Verizon OneFiber has an advantage, and AT&T is reasonably well experienced as well, although they seem to have some areas still stuck on T-1's with 3G that they are having trouble upgrading to fiber for LTE.

    In terms of mid-band, AT&T has large rural areas where they almost exclusively use mid-band, with low-band available for coverage at the very extreme fringe. Low-band is more critical in hilly or heavily wooded areas. I just don't see having a single 5x5 as an obstacle to providing coverage. T-Mobile built out a lot of sites with only a 5x5 of B12, which was idiotic, they should have put B2 and B4 on as well, even if only part of the area was covered by B2/4.

    Also, Verizon - on my data line which has "no" depri level (it's the old gUDP plan that still has a "minutes" bucket)... Data is not only sluggish, it's unbearable to a point things will simply not load and I cannot transfer files at times. I experience this quite often in downtown areas, hotels, airports, etc.. That's actually what made me give AT&T a try again, as T-Mobile has congestion issues in certain parts of Chicago thanks to I assume MetroPCS customers, and Verizon is trash when I travel for work.
    Are we sure that gUPD isn't second in line behind the new plans with "Priority Data", but still ahead of depri plans? AFAIK, they have a whole bunch of different levels of priority. At this point, they should really bring back the GB bucket plans, put them first in line, then Priority Data, then gUDP, then depri, then MVNOs.

    AT&T has been *fairly* solid in my travels, but T-Mobile as of late has been on par when traveling around for the most part, and has improved in the year that I kinda stopped messing with it (and they sold me unlimited LTE tethering to boot)
    T-Mobile just isn't there coverage wise. AT&T has a good overall network. I wish they had never offered UDPs, but their speeds are usually OK, usually double-digits, and it's not uncommon to see triple digits. I almost never have congestion issues. If they had not sold UDPs, they'd probably be doing 400mbps+ on a semi-regular basis on LTE. For the most part, I've had a great experience with AT&T, except for Western Florida, I don't know what was going on there, but it was a disaster.

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