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Thread: T-Mobile calls out Verizon's tiny 5G network

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    T-Mobile calls out Verizon's tiny 5G network

    Neville Ray, T-Mobile's president of technology, made a blog post yesterday calling out Verizon's tiny 5G network:

    https://www.t-mobile.com/news/verwhyzon

    T-Mobile also put together a parody commercial for "Verwhyzon" which can be seen here:

    https://youtu.be/-KUnP1sxOPw

    He also encourages people to look at Verizon's 5G maps to see how shockingly small their coverage is:

    https://www.verizonwireless.com/5g/coverage-map/

    I pulled up some of the cities that I'm familiar with and it's pretty bad.

    With Legere leaving it looks like Ray may be taking over the role of trolling the other carriers.

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    I think, at this point, all comparison's are stuff and nonsense. T-Mobile's n71 5G network is no faster than LTE and Verizon's mmWave 5G network is unusable in 99% of cases. And yet they each make out like their stuff don't smell and the other guy's reeks to high heaven. In a few years T-Mobile and Verizon will each have balanced 5G networks. Then comparisons may make sense. For now. it's just humorous.

    Maybe if someone could explain to me how having (for instance) 5 MHz of LTE next to 10 MHz of 5G is better than having 15 MHz of just LTE, I might reconsider. Until then, it seems like a decision made by the marketing department to me.
    Donald Newcomb

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    Honestly, at this point, it’s just childish to be slamming your competitors in this manner.

    T-MO has made long strides, expanded coverage, gained customers, got Sprint (pending close), but there is no way their network even with 5G, outmatches Verizon. There are tests showing how Verizon’s LTE network is actually faster then T-Mobile 5G.

    That’s the thing about Verizon, they are consistent. TMO is kind of hit or miss, and I am not referring to coverage (even though it’s true in some areas), but TMO is facing major congestion issues. That’s not to say VZW doesn’t have congestion issues, but it’s not about a moniker. It’s about coverage, reliability, and consistency.

    TMO still has work to do, and instead of spending it on slamming VZ and others, it’s just best to use that cash and invest it in the network. Outmatch Verizon in network investment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRNewcomb View Post
    I think, at this point, all comparison's are stuff and nonsense. T-Mobile's n71 5G network is no faster than LTE and Verizon's mmWave 5G network is unusable in 99% of cases. And yet they each make out like their stuff don't smell and the other guy's reeks to high heaven. In a few years T-Mobile and Verizon will each have balanced 5G networks. Then comparisons may make sense. For now. it's just humorous.

    Maybe if someone could explain to me how having (for instance) 5 MHz of LTE next to 10 MHz of 5G is better than having 15 MHz of just LTE, I might reconsider. Until then, it seems like a decision made by the marketing department to me.
    I mean... it isn't hard to explain why that is the case. It's more efficient and you get more with less because of it. It IS faster. They're running what, 5 mhz channels right now and you're drawing 70 mbps? Try that same feat on band 12, it just isn't possible. Slices of air being equal, it's just better. Like saying HSPA was better with data than plain old UMTS was. Or why EVDO performed better with data than 1x did. It may seem marginal compared to what internet speeds were for their respective times, but they were huge shifts.

    Similarly, what Verizon is able to do with the massive swaths of mmwave is insane. It's a spectrum hog, it's coverage appears to be unscalable, but the writing is on the wall with what this is capable of.

    I guess at the end of it all, that scalable piece is what catches my attention, especially with the relationship now with Dish... and AT&T's ownership of Directv. Why, well what is a satellite dish? It's a big A antenna meant to get these same higher frequencies from miles above the earth. There's a lot of them out there, and they could be pointed at a different target... like a cell tower. I guess what I'm saying is, don't discount that this mmwave solution is likely better marketed as a home internet solution... and T-Mobile's low band solutions are likely more what you should expect out of your pocket.

    I could also be wildly incorrect and totally insane. But that's where my imagination takes me.

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    When the Verizon customers start paying $1000 plus up-to $1,400 for a 5G Samsung S20 Ultra they are going to be very upset that even if you are walking outside in one of their mmWave 5G ares your expense 5G phone only has a 6% chance to connect to Verizon 5G network. We got some Verizon supporter that come and claim Verizon will have low band 5G this year and make fun of T-Mobile current 5G speed. As soon as T-Mobile gets Sprint’s spectrum then T-Mobile 5G will be fast enough for 99% of their customers needs. If you build it they will come.

    On T-Mobile’s 600Mhz 5G network we saw the greatest time connected to 5G of 53.0%. We were able to connect to a 5G signal just over half of the time during our testing on T-Mobile’s 600 MHz and slightly less on Sprint’s 2.5GHz 5G networks. With both T-Mobile’s mmWave and AT&T’s 850 MHz 5G networks we spent 10.6% of the time connected to a 5G signal during the walk tests, while we connected to a 5G signal on Verizon’s mmWave 5G just 6% of the time.”

    https://www.opensignal.com/2020/02/2...ly-5g-approach

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuffaloTF View Post
    I mean... it isn't hard to explain why that is the case. It's more efficient and you get more with less because of it. It IS faster. They're running what, 5 mhz channels right now and you're drawing 70 mbps? Try that same feat on band 12, it just isn't possible.
    This has less to do with air interface and more to do with lack of UE accessing the NR network. 70Mbps, but 10x10 is dedicated to NR at this point in all markets but NYC, and you’re getting CA with AWS and PCS. Disingenuous argument.

    Slices of air being equal, it's just better.
    In 15 and 20 MHz FDD channels and 20 MHz TDD channels, yes.

    In 5 MHz FDD LTE vs NR, LTE is 13% more efficient.

    In 10 MHz FDD LTE vs NR. LTE is 9% more efficient.

    In 15 MHz FDD LTE vs NR, NR is 9% more efficient.

    In 20 MHz FDD LTE vs NR, NR is 13% more efficient.


    Like saying HSPA was better with data than plain old UMTS was.
    More complex modulation schemes allowed massive boosts to data speeds with SINR allowing. The jump from QPSK to 16QAM was a 100% boost in throughput. 16QAM to 64QAM was a 50% boost in throughput. 64QAM to 256QAM was a 33% boost in throughput. 256QAM to 1024QAM will be a 25% boost to throughput. The SINR requirements increase a lot with each more complex modulation scheme. The same is not happening with NR.

    Or why EVDO performed better with data than 1x did. It may seem marginal compared to what internet speeds were for their respective times, but they were huge shifts.
    EV-DO only moves data, not voice. All of the airwaves were dedicated to it, whereas for 1X most of the spectrum utilization was for voice.

    Similarly, what Verizon is able to do with the massive swaths of mmwave is insane. It's a spectrum hog, it's coverage appears to be unscalable, but the writing is on the wall with what this is capable of.
    I kind of see what you’re getting at here, but I think you’re missing the target a bit. A giant leap yes, but completely different than what we’re seeing from LTE vs NR in normal Sub 2.5 GHz FDD channels.

    A lot of the benefit of T-Mobile doing NR now is future proofing for stand-alone. Like Shiloh has said, waiting for a device with all of the upcoming NR feature sets is wise. As of right now, NR is nothing more than bragging rights and a prettier icon with one more number in front of their G. mmW does show impressive gains, and I can see why Verizon is targeting it where they are. They grind to a halt in downtown Chicago, similar to T-Mobile. T-Mobile’s 600 MHz 5G rollout is giving them wider broadband coverage in areas they lacked the 700 MHz license, which benefits customers whether or not it’s LTE or 5G. AT&T’s FirstNet rollout is similar IMO in the sense that they’re putting up NR capable radios on every site they touch, so once standalone is ready, AT&T and T-Mobile will have large networks ready for it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondLink View Post
    Honestly, at this point, it’s just childish to be slamming your competitors in this manner.
    Merger opponents complained that competition would be reduced. I'd just point out that attacking your competitor's weaknesses is just good old fashioned competition. Such as this point from Ray's blog:

    "Verizon has been running non-stop ads talking about 5G “from Midtown Manhattan to Downtown Denver”. But in reality, they have almost no 5G anywhere in between … and even in those cities, their 5G is only available in very limited outdoor areas, literally covering only a few blocks here and there. It’s irresponsible, and we need to keep calling this out..."

    I'm sure Verizon would prefer if these facts weren't made known. But with T-Mobile's added resources from the merger they are charging hard at Verizon. Verizon will just have to get used to it.

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    It seems weird that att isn't involving itself in the 5G commercial battles like VZW and TMO are with each other. Are they taking the high road and Just letting the network speak for itself? VZW use to do this but TMO has really gotten under their skin which I thought no carrier could do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shortyd999 View Post
    It seems weird that att isn't involving itself in the 5G commercial battles like VZW and TMO are with each other. Are they taking the high road and Just letting the network speak for itself? VZW use to do this but TMO has really gotten under their skin which I thought no carrier could do.
    According to this article AT&T is focusing their 5G on industrial - IoT, M2M, etc. for now. Makes sense to me - lots of devices with long term subscribers for the initial phase of their 5G. Fickle individual phone lines can come later when the network is built to support them.

    https://www.barrons.com/articles/how...of2&yptr=yahoo

    "[AT&T President & COO] John Stankey : With 5G, we’re going to revert to what used to be the norm in technology, when business applications came first and then flowed to consumers. In the early 2000s, that shifted, and consumer applications drove mass deployment, and then benefits would flow to enterprises. With 5G, the dynamic is going to flip back, with the first meaningful applications enterprise-led, like distributed manufacturing floors that become automated through pervasive sensors and control mechanisms driven by 5G networks."

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    I love how T-Mobile calls out Verizon for their lack of 5G. Verizon is always bragging about how they have the best this and first to that. While I known that no carrier has much 5G at the moment. It’s still funny to see Verizon get exposed for not having 5G in 99% of places at them moment.
    Last edited by trees12; 02-28-2020 at 06:57 PM.
    Manners cost nothing, and also have the added benefit of making a man. You know, it is entirely possible to rise above others, without stooping to pushing them under, and putting them down.
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    I’d rather have a signal that actually works (LTE and 5G) but that’s just me. Here’s some Band 71 speed tests of mine: https://m.imgur.com/a/3ZTagVq

    Pretty pathetic if you ask me. One spot in those speed tests my AT&T phone was on band 2 and getting 20+ Mbps.

    Went to Edgewood MD and highest speed test was 4 Mbps vs AT&T’s average was 50 Mbps. One test T-Mobile got .5 and AT&T got 120 lmao.
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    In general - T-Mobile's 5G NR is not much different for most than having a new device with a new LTE band that other devices don't have access to. At one time it was B12/700MHz... then B71/600MHz. Now just 'more' 600MHz - but with a different radio.
    I won't expect many to leave VZW to flock to T-Mobile, unless they are just urban dwellers in an area which already has great T-Mobile service.
    This is not a promo for AT&T/VZW, but ... they typically do have better (or in some cases just actual) service in many areas outside the concrete jungle than T-Mobile . Whether it is Kauai, Colorado, Michigan, California, MA, VT, NH - I've typically head better rural service on other carriers. I don't spend enough time to make me want to switch, but I suspect those that travel/work/live in those areas will NOT be picking T-Mobile anytime soon.
    AT&T... your world, throttled.

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    Of course they did. T-Mobile seems to wanna play with the big dogs now so they’re calling out Big Red.

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    In 5 MHz FDD LTE vs NR, LTE is 13% more efficient.

    In 10 MHz FDD LTE vs NR. LTE is 9% more efficient.

    In 15 MHz FDD LTE vs NR, NR is 9% more efficient.

    In 20 MHz FDD LTE vs NR, NR is 13% more efficient.
    Are you sure? I mean, both LTE and 5g NR are ultimately using 180khz wide resource blocks; so I'm not sure why there'd be a significant difference in relative efficiency between LTE and 5G NR based on running a 5, 10, 15, or 20mhz channel. I'm not saying you're wrong, this whole thing is pretty complicated, it just sounds a tad suspect to me.

    That said... good on T-Mo. It's early for anyone to be comparing their 5G networks; but if VZW's going to start it by commenting on T-Mo's 5G speeds it is only fair for T-Mo to comment on VZW's very limited 5G coverage area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwertz View Post
    That said... good on T-Mo. It's early for anyone to be comparing their 5G networks; but if VZW's going to start it by commenting on T-Mo's 5G speeds it is only fair for T-Mo to comment on VZW's very limited 5G coverage area.
    I could be wrong but I thought T-Mobile started this pissing match with their super bowl ad and Verizon has simply been responding back.

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