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Thread: Verizon, T-Mobile bicker over C-band auction rules

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRNewcomb View Post
    (Emphasis added)
    So, all T-Mobile has to do is offer a plan that provides a marginal increase in data and then they'll be free to discontinue legacy rates and raise new rates to whatever they want. If they had said, "...that offer a lower price and more data..." I'd be in full agreement with you. But if you parse the statement like a computer, they've left themselves a big loophole.


    Attachment 165337
    Right, nowhere do they give an explanation of what they mean by more data. It could be a depo limit raise, it could be more hotspot data. It's vague terms that leaves them to determine what it exactly means. I'm surprised Jet is even debating this as hard as he is. I mean just 2 days ago he said this. Name:  20200226_041225.jpeg
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    Quote Originally Posted by hofonewb9 View Post
    Show where it says this exactly? Or is this YOUR definition of what it means? Because your definition is meaningless. More data could also mean more non depo data, as I've been saying. Nowhere do they give any type of definition to what they mean. It is a useless agreement. You could use it for toilet paper if you wanted to. For some reason you must think tmobile is stupid where they would back themselves into a corner where they couldn't raise rates if they wanted to. Sorry, the company isnt that stupid.
    Ironically, DISH made essentially the same arguments you're making:

    https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1020723...Ex%20Parte.pdf

    This document contains DISH's laundry list of the various ways T-Mo could wiggle out of the "toothless" (DISH's word, not mine) commitment.



    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
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    Todd Allcock, Microsoft MVP: Mobile Devices 2007-2011

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    Quote Originally Posted by elecconnec View Post
    Ironically, DISH made essentially the same arguments you're making:

    https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1020723...Ex%20Parte.pdf

    This document contains DISH's laundry list of the various ways T-Mo could wiggle out of the "toothless" (DISH's word, not mine) commitment.



    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    They're right. The agreement is meaningless. All TMobile has to do is raise the depo limit, give you more hotspot and call it a day. They met their requirements and can charge more. There was no way the company would back themselves into an agreement where they couldn't raise rates for 3 years. That would be idiotic on their part to do.

    All this melodramatic b.s. from people claiming "only people who hate TMobile would say that" and other nonsense. People with eyes would say that, as they can read what it says and can clearly see it gives TMobile outs everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hofonewb9 View Post
    They're right. The agreement is meaningless. All TMobile has to do is raise the depo limit, give you more hotspot and call it a day. They met their requirements and can charge more. There was no way the company would back themselves into an agreement where they couldn't raise rates for 3 years. That would be idiotic on their part to do.

    All this melodramatic b.s. from people claiming "only people who hate TMobile would say that" and other nonsense. People with eyes would say that, as they can read what it says and can clearly see it gives TMobile outs everywhere.
    Agreed. At the end of the day T-Mobile is going to do what they think is best for their bottom line. They are going to try to do the absolute bare minimum required under the agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by compuguy View Post
    Agreed. At the end of the day T-Mobile is going to do what they think is best for their bottom line. They are going to try to do the absolute bare minimum required under the agreement.
    Just for the record and before anyone tries putting words in my mouth, I never said that T-Mobile would raise rates. They might actually offer lower rates. It's possible (in fact, it may be the more likely scenario), particularly as they add the massive capacity made available by the integration of of Sprint's band-41 licenses*. I've only said that no one should count on the "commitment" T-Mobile made to the FCC because they left themselves a huge loophole through which to slither out, if they so choose.

    *The theory being that they may be holding rates high because lowering them further would create even more network congestion in urban markets. Added capacity will allow them lower rates and attract even more customers.
    Donald Newcomb

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    I hope that T-Mobile win a lot of spectrum in the CBRS FCC auction starting in June and then see what they need in the C-Band in December. Is there any limits on how much CBRS spectrum you can buy?

    FCC sets December C-band auction, offers up to $14.7 billion for satellite operators https://spacenews.com/fcc-sets-decem...ite-operators/

    “ The FCC plans to auction 280 megahertz of satellite C-band spectrum to 5G cellular networks Dec. 8, and will allow satellite operators to collect up to $9.7 billion in incentive payments if they help speed up the spectrum transfer, Chairman Ajit Pai said Feb. 6. “

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    Verizon, T-Mobile bicker over C-band auction rules

    Quote Originally Posted by DRNewcomb View Post
    Just for the record and before anyone tries putting words in my mouth, I never said that T-Mobile would raise rates. They might actually offer lower rates. It's possible (in fact, it may be the more likely scenario), particularly as they add the massive capacity made available by the integration of of Sprint's band-41 licenses*. I've only said that no one should count on the "commitment" T-Mobile made to the FCC because they left themselves a huge loophole through which to slither out, if they so choose.

    *The theory being that they may be holding rates high because lowering them further would create even more network congestion in urban markets. Added capacity will allow them lower rates and attract even more customers.
    The main reason I disagree with this is incentive. The incentive isn't there to engage Verizon or at&t in a price war and a race to the bottom. TMobile is gaining almost 100% of the market growth right now without doing this. This also goes against D.T.'s goal of becoming number 1 in the u.s., not in customer count, but in market value. Adding a ton of low profit customers increases cost elsewhere and in the long run, isn't overly worth it to them. If TMobile was limping into this merger, I'd agree, you'd likely see them engage in a price war, but, they're not. That said, if after the merger closes and TMobile starts receiving bad press, and they notice people are starting to leave, this could change things and they could indeed start a race to the bottom, but, as it sits now, just don't see it. I think TMobile will look for adds with their brand image, and look to push other things they offer as incentive to switch (Netflix, taxes and fees included, global roaming included, TMobile Tuesdays) you are already starting to see this pop up in smaller doses (T-Mobile has made a mandatory price increase to people signed up for protection 360 tiers 3 and above starting in April), you got layoffs with metro about to be announced soon. They aren’t gonna eat costs anymore and decrease profits, they’ve already went through that phase.
    Last edited by hofonewb9; 02-27-2020 at 08:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hofonewb9 View Post
    ....The incentive isn't there to engage Verizon or at&t in a price war and a race to the bottom. .....
    Naturally, you make a valid point. I think a lot hinges on DISH (maybe too much) and what they do. I assume that Charlie is going to bring in partners (or a buyer) who can actually take what he's got and build a working network from the various parts. It is possible that within three years there will be a fourth carrier providing real price competition from below. ITMT, I believe that T-Mobile actually intends to honor, rather than dodge, their "commitment" to not raise prices; if for no other reason, than it would look bad to use the loophole they left themselves.

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    My opinion is with 5G phones on most Flagship phones coming out now and lower priced mid-range 5G phones coming to market soon there will be migration to networks that have useable easy to connect 5G where you live, work and play. If you build it they will come. Sure don’t think people paying $1,400 for a S20 Ultra is going to be happy with a network that has no 5G planned in their area. I expect the new T-Mobile to have a major advantage in 5G in 2020. As soon as T-Mobile starts deploying the new 2.5GHz as 5G nationwide it will be game on for T-Mobile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elecconnec View Post
    Ironically, DISH made essentially the same arguments you're making:

    https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1020723...Ex%20Parte.pdf
    They stated that in February 2019 when they were "against" the merger (or waiting for their payout--however you want to look at it.) T-Mobile's commitment maintained basically the same wording in the November 2019, MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER which Dish was a part of and you'll note, Dish had no objection then.

    Quote Originally Posted by hofonewb9 View Post
    More data could also mean more non depo data, as I've been saying. Nowhere do they give any type of definition to what they mean. It is a useless agreement.
    This is just more doom and gloom fearmongering by claiming that T-Mobile won't honor their agreement with the FCC. It's very similar to that article by Nilay Patel at the Verge:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/12/2...iers-antitrust

    I see articles like that for what they are, a bunch of sour grapes by those against the merger. Fearmongering isn't going to change T-Mobile's direction. Neville Ray just restated the 3 year commitment to PC Mag again yesterday:

    "A firmer pledge he was willing to make: 5G service plans will be unlimited, and they won't be more expensive than T-Mobile's existing 4G service plans, at least for three years. "

    "Ray's pledge clarifies T-Mobile CEO John Legere's pledge not to raise rates for three years, by making it clear that the pledge also applies to 5G plans."

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/t-mobile-...t-half-of-2019

    See, that's the real truth of the matter and not the supposed "loopholes" the anti-Tmobile crowd are trying to allege.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    They stated that in February 2019 when they were "against" the merger (or waiting for their payout--however you want to look at it.) T-Mobile's commitment maintained basically the same wording in the November 2019, MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER which Dish was a part of and you'll note, Dish had no objection then.



    This is just more doom and gloom fearmongering by claiming that T-Mobile won't honor their agreement with the FCC. It's very similar to that article by Nilay Patel at the Verge:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/12/2...iers-antitrust

    I see articles like that for what they are, a bunch of sour grapes by those against the merger. Fearmongering isn't going to change T-Mobile's direction. Neville Ray just restated the 3 year commitment to PC Mag again yesterday:

    "A firmer pledge he was willing to make: 5G service plans will be unlimited, and they won't be more expensive than T-Mobile's existing 4G service plans, at least for three years. "

    "Ray's pledge clarifies T-Mobile CEO John Legere's pledge not to raise rates for three years, by making it clear that the pledge also applies to 5G plans."

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/t-mobile-...t-half-of-2019

    See, that's the real truth of the matter and not the supposed "loopholes" the anti-Tmobile crowd are trying to allege.
    Neville Ray's pledge means absolutely nothing. Looks great in print though huh? The fact is if they wanted to actually make a pledge to the FCC claiming they wouldn't raise rates for 3 years they could of. They didn't do that. They instead made a pledge that if they do replace a plan and charge more for it, it will be a with a plan that they, and they alone deem better. That's all they agreed to. No matter how much the apologists, and paid social influencers, try to spin it.


    You yourself said it. "They are a for profit business and have every right to charge more if they want" you said this 3 days ago. Either, you just flip flop your opinion to argue, or you have Alzheimer's. If it is the latter, I strongly suggest getting medical help. The disease is no joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRNewcomb View Post
    Naturally, you make a valid point. I think a lot hinges on DISH (maybe too much) and what they do. I assume that Charlie is going to bring in partners (or a buyer) who can actually take what he's got and build a working network from the various parts. It is possible that within three years there will be a fourth carrier providing real price competition from below. ITMT, I believe that T-Mobile actually intends to honor, rather than dodge, their "commitment" to not raise prices; if for no other reason, than it would look bad to use the loophole they left themselves.
    Dish is interesting going forward. They are definitely a wildcard. While I have no faith in Charlie, I do hope he is able to get something done to actually put competitive pressure on the big 3. He has an opportunity to disrupt everything, though personally, I feel if the DOJ was really serious about setting up dish as a 4th option, they should of forced the new TMobile to divest metro to them over boost. Sprint has intentionally gutted boost now for 2 years, and it is responsible for the majority of sprints branded customer losses. But that's another debate. Hopefully dish, or whomever ends up with boost and all the spectrum in the end, does something with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    They stated that in February 2019 when they were "against" the merger (or waiting for their payout--however you want to look at it.) T-Mobile's commitment maintained basically the same wording in the November 2019, MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER which Dish was a part of and you'll note, Dish had no objection then.



    This is just more doom and gloom fearmongering by claiming that T-Mobile won't honor their agreement with the FCC. It's very similar to that article by Nilay Patel at the Verge:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/12/2...iers-antitrust

    I see articles like that for what they are, a bunch of sour grapes by those against the merger. Fearmongering isn't going to change T-Mobile's direction. Neville Ray just restated the 3 year commitment to PC Mag again yesterday:

    "A firmer pledge he was willing to make: 5G service plans will be unlimited, and they won't be more expensive than T-Mobile's existing 4G service plans, at least for three years. "

    "Ray's pledge clarifies T-Mobile CEO John Legere's pledge not to raise rates for three years, by making it clear that the pledge also applies to 5G plans."

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/t-mobile-...t-half-of-2019

    See, that's the real truth of the matter and not the supposed "loopholes" the anti-Tmobile crowd are trying to allege.

    Agreed the Anti-Merger people that are really customers of AT&T and Verizon are just throwing out more FUD as if they still think they can somehow stop the Merger. Pure sour grapes they are upset T-Mobile will be able to compete with AT&T and Verizon. T-Mobile prices may go up or down but I could care less since I have my plan locked in. Really Verizon and AT&T are more likely to raise prices. Dish that must grow their customers base will be the value price network and still have T-Mobile network to roam on. Whatever the plan prices is not an issue since Comcast and Charter have their own WiFi hotspots network plus roaming on Verizon. Add in SpaceX, OneWeb and Amazon that each will launch thousands of low orbit satellites will also be a player in mobile devices. The mobile phone and WISP is more competitive in the next few years than ever before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post
    They stated that in February 2019 when they were "against" the merger (or waiting for their payout--however you want to look at it.) T-Mobile's commitment maintained basically the same wording in the November 2019, MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER which Dish was a part of and you'll note, Dish had no objection then.
    Right. The guarantee didn't change, DISH's position just did, after the merger was good for them.

    So, was DISH lying before, or after? Do you think O.J.'s attorneys thought he was guilty before they were hired to defend him?


    Quote Originally Posted by jet1000 View Post

    Neville Ray just restated the 3 year commitment to PC Mag again yesterday:

    "A firmer pledge he was willing to make: 5G service plans will be unlimited, and they won't be more expensive than T-Mobile's existing 4G service plans, at least for three years. "

    "Ray's pledge clarifies T-Mobile CEO John Legere's pledge not to raise rates for three years, by making it clear that the pledge also applies to 5G plans."

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/t-mobile-...t-half-of-2019

    See, that's the real truth of the matter and not the supposed "loopholes" the anti-Tmobile crowd are trying to allege.
    That settles it then, because thankfully, statements made in an interview with PCMag are legally binding in mergers and acquisitions.

    Seriously though, I don't expect T-Mo to raise rates soon after the merger, not because of their guarantees, or economies of scale, but because of the optics- it'd just be bad PR.

    Regardless, they *could* if they wanted to, not just because the guarantee has more holes than T-Mo's current rural coverage, but because there's no *penalty* if they do. If you read the merger documents, some of the guarantees (specifically the 5G population build out percentages and wireless broadband commitments) carry significant monetary penalties should T-Mo miss them.

    Guess how much the penalty is if T-Mo doubles their current rates the day after the merger?



    Exactly.

    Essentially, the FCC's answer to DISH's original objection was "but T-Mo calls themselves the Uncarrier, so they wouldn't do that." There is absolutely *no* enforcement of T-Mo's price guarantees (or job protection/creation assertions) in the FCC docket, like there is with rural coverage or wireless broadband commitments. So we know what the FCC cared about, and what they didn't.




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    Quote Originally Posted by hofonewb9 View Post
    They instead made a pledge that if they do replace a plan and charge more for it, it will be a with a plan that they, and they alone deem better.
    They never have stated that they're going to charge more for an existing plan. This is something that you completely made up.

    Let's see what they actually said:

    "the Applicants committed to offer T-Mobile and Sprint legacy rate plans available as of February 4, 2019 for three years following consummation of the transaction or until better plans that offer a lower price or more data are made available." Paragraph 209

    https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachme...C-19-103A1.pdf

    Nowhere in the above statement do they say they will "charge more". That came from you. Their words are "lower price" or "more data".

    In fact none of their public statements claim they will raise rates as you state. Their statements like the one made to pcmag say the opposite: "Ray's pledge clarifies T-Mobile CEO John Legere's pledge not to raise rates for three years, by making it clear that the pledge also applies to 5G plans.

    You're spreading a manufactured claim without any evidence to support it.

    You yourself said it. "They are a for profit business and have every right to charge more if they want"
    I was of course referring to the time period after the 3 year freeze. I said that in response to eleconnec who has acknowledged that merger promises exist:

    Quote Originally Posted by elecconnec View Post
    I'm claiming that they will raise prices for *new* customers, at least when merger promises expire
    Clarifying the time period being discussed with elecconnec did not appear relevant at that time.


    Quote Originally Posted by hofonewb9 View Post
    you have Alzheimer's. If it is the latter, I strongly suggest getting medical help. The disease is no joke.
    This is just another example of one of your personal attacks. Something you resort to when you're unable to talk about the topic at hand.

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