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Thread: Dss

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by VVivian View Post
    Personally, I think deploying 5G over 850 MHz first and 1900 MHz second (in markets with both; otherwise one or the other) makes the most sense because densification + offloading will absolutely allow Verizon to spare at least a 5+5 MHz block (and also because 850 MHz would establish the wide range that's so critical to any new network).

    LTE will be fine with 700 + 1700/2100 + CBRS + LAA * densification - 5G offload.

    I think 5 MHz( even 10 MHz ) is useless for 5G however. Watch this Friday when T-Mobile lights up low band 5G people expecting gig speeds are going to be disappointed. Especially those that spent $1200 on phone to get "5G"

    Verizon will be fine when they can get rid of or greatly increase the limits on their "unlimited" plans. Obviously they don't have the spectrum for that currently

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack4 View Post
    If T-Mobile is only getting 35mbps on band 71 with LTE, they are still only using 2X2 MIMO and 64-QAM for some reason.
    I have read experts state that MMIMO antennas for band 71 would be the size of a Volkswagen bug. When this was a topic on the Tmobile forum an installer chimed in and said he had not seen any mmimo antenna arrays for band 71 being installed just 'coverage' antennas' and that some towers had to have their structural support increased even for normal band 71 antennas because the elements are so large. Massive MIMO is integral with 5G.

    Beyond that a sub 6ghz channel for 5G is supposed to be 100mhz wide so throwing 10mhz at it and calling it 5G as if it's all the same is a lie because it'll never meet the spec requirements for 5G. For sub 6ghz the idea is to aggregate low and mid band spectrum to achieve decent speeds which means overlaying smaller cells to get the same coverage as the coverage spectrum. Sub 6 5G channels are 100mhz wide. MMwave 5G channels are 400 and 800mhz wide.

    https://www.rcrwireless.com/20190124...-analyst-angle

    We consider a spectrum to be suitable for 5G deployment if it consists of a minimum of 100 MHz of bandwidth, because, in order to deliver speeds close to 1Gbps, 100 MHz will be needed if an efficient modulation scheme is used that produced 10bits/Hz, assuming TDD technology. By this definition, currently neither AT&T, Verizon nor T-Mobile controls enough sub-6GHz spectrum that is suitable for mobile 5G network deployment.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hagar View Post
    And next year when Verizon an at&t do 5G over lowband T-Mobile can no longer used their lowband as an "advantage" I can't wait for another 5 days when the speed tests for this 5G over lowband are underwhelming.
    $1,400 for the Tmobile Samsung phone too. Yeah, I'd say there will be some disappointed buyers.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by offthegrid View Post
    I have read experts state that MMIMO antennas for band 71 would be the size of a Volkswagen bug. When this was a topic on the Tmobile forum an installer chimed in and said he had not seen any mmimo antenna arrays for band 71 being installed just 'coverage' antennas' and that some towers had to have their structural support increased even for normal band 71 antennas because the elements are so large. Massive MIMO is integral with 5G.
    Exactly low band will be stuck at 2x2 MIMO. Not sure if they can upgrade to QAM 256.

    Beyond that a sub 6ghz channel for 5G is supposed to be 100mhz wide so throwing 10mhz at it and calling it 5G as if it's all the same is a lie because it'll never meet the spec requirements for 5G. For sub 6ghz the idea is to aggregate low and mid band spectrum to achieve decent speeds which means overlaying smaller cells to get the same coverage as the coverage spectrum. Sub 6 5G channels are 100mhz wide. MMwave 5G channels are 400 and 800mhz wide.

    https://www.rcrwireless.com/20190124...-analyst-angle
    Here's the thing the CBRS bands that are going to be auctions are going to be sol in 10 MHz blocks with any one company limited to 40 MHz. I've read the CBAND auction is talking about 20 MHz blocks with a maximum of 280 MHZ up for auction. So maybe 2 companies can get a 100 MHz slice of CBAND spectrum. For the record the 24 GHz blocks were 100 MHz wide and the 37/39 and 47 GHz block with also be 100 MHZ wide. The 28 GHz spectrum has two 425 MHz blocks. Got to love the way T-Mobile is convincing everyone that 5 or 10 MHz of 5G lowband is the same as 425-850 MHz of mmwave.

    Quote Originally Posted by offthegrid View Post
    $1,400 for the Tmobile Samsung phone too. Yeah, I'd say there will be some disappointed buyers.
    wait until they find out they can't access the mmwave 5G band with their phone.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hagar View Post
    Exactly low band will be stuck at 2x2 MIMO. Not sure if they can upgrade to QAM 256.
    Verizon already has 4x4 MIMO deployed for bands 13 and 5 LTE.

    Quote Originally Posted by offthegrid View Post
    I have read experts state that MMIMO antennas for band 71 would be the size of a Volkswagen bug. When this was a topic on the Tmobile forum an installer chimed in and said he had not seen any mmimo antenna arrays for band 71 being installed just 'coverage' antennas' and that some towers had to have their structural support increased even for normal band 71 antennas because the elements are so large. Massive MIMO is integral with 5G.
    MIMO is MIMO. If it's too big with LTE, it will also be too big with 5G NR on the same band. Massive MIMO will be even bigger than 4x4 MIMO. Check https://www.telecompetitor.com/sprin...created-equal/ for example.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack4 View Post
    MIMO is MIMO. If it's too big with LTE, it will also be too big with 5G NR on the same band. Massive MIMO will be even bigger than 4x4 MIMO. Check https://www.telecompetitor.com/sprin...created-equal/ for example.
    ? I said band 71 antennas would be too big for massive mimo so I'm not sure why you're responding to me with this.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by offthegrid View Post
    ? I said band 71 antennas would be too big for massive mimo so I'm not sure why you're responding to me with this.
    I interpreted your post as LTE MIMO on band 71 would be too big (you didn't mention LTE, but quoted my post where I did), but be possible with 5G because "Massive MIMO is integral with 5G". Sorry if I misunderstood.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack4 View Post
    I interpreted your post as LTE MIMO on band 71 would be too big (you didn't mention LTE, but quoted my post where I did), but be possible with 5G because "Massive MIMO is integral with 5G". Sorry if I misunderstood.
    No problem, I was wondering if I had misinterpreted your post.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack4 View Post
    I interpreted your post as LTE MIMO on band 71 would be too big (you didn't mention LTE, but quoted my post where I did), but be possible with 5G because "Massive MIMO is integral with 5G". Sorry if I misunderstood.
    why would it be any different? the wavelength of a frequency is the same size no matter if it's 4G 5G or being used for a TV signal or anything else.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack4 View Post
    Verizon already has 4x4 MIMO deployed for bands 13 and 5 LTE.
    Link. Not saying you're wrong just want proof. Also T-Mobile's 600 MHz wavelength is on average 20% larger than band 13 and 25% larger than band 5.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hagar View Post
    why would it be any different? the wavelength of a frequency is the same size no matter if it's 4G 5G or being used for a TV signal or anything else.
    Yes, it's the same of course. I just misunderstood what offthegrid initially said and tried to correct it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hagar View Post
    Link. Not saying you're wrong just want proof.
    https://www.howardforums.com/showthr...-band-13-and-5

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack4 View Post
    Yes, it's the same of course. I just misunderstood what offthegrid initially said and tried to correct it.

    https://www.howardforums.com/showthr...-band-13-and-5
    All that says they were upgrading certain areas. I'd like to know an update since then to see how widespread that deployment is. Of course no matter what Verizon is doing that doesn't mean t-mobile is doing 4X4 MIMO on band 71. Maybe they are maybe not. I don't have that info. I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

  13. #28
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    The antenna elements are more than a foot longer on 600mhz v 700mhz (from what I've read). This presents a much larger load to the tower in terms of weight and wind load but even 700, 800 and 850 are impractical.

    Sprint's antennas for band 41 have 128 mimo elements in a pizza box like package while the Verizon mmwave small cells have 256 elements in a paperbook size package. Just the size and weight of the antenna at low frequencies along with the lack of available bandwidth is a serious detriment to 5G for that spectrum. FDD requires double the elements too so.

    http://research.rewheel.fi/downloads...e_12042018.pdf

    Low Band’frequencies such as 700, 800, 900 MHz in Europe would require clearly impractical antenna sizes.
    https://business.sprint.com/blog/new...assive-signal/

    With 2.5 GHz, it is possible to put so many small – about 1.5-by-1.5-inch – antennas in a radio set that has a total footprint of about two by two feet, or the size of an extra-large pizza box. If you tried to do that with 600 MHz transmission, the antenna array would be the size of a small automobile. Compactness maximizes space efficiency not only on traditional cell towers, but also on the microsites that will be added to boost coverage in hard-to-reach areas.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by offthegrid View Post
    With 2.5 GHz, it is possible to put so many small – about 1.5-by-1.5-inch – antennas in a radio set that has a total footprint of about two by two feet, or the size of an extra-large pizza box. If you tried to do that with 600 MHz transmission, the antenna array would be the size of a small automobile. Compactness maximizes space efficiency not only on traditional cell towers, but also on the microsites that will be added to boost coverage in hard-to-reach areas.
    at 1.5 inch by 1.5 inch for 2.5 GHz then 600 would require 6 inch by 6 inch or 2 feet by 2 feet for 4X4

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack4 View Post
    Verizon already has 4x4 MIMO deployed for bands 13 and 5 LTE
    I haven't seen any 4x4 MIMO on 13 or 5. Just 66 and 2.

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