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Thread: Why is Verizon all-in on Unlimited?

  1. #31
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    That's not the fact. The FACT is that Verizon took John Legere's bait and offered UDPs. If they had held strong, AT&T would have held strong as well (other than D* bundles), and people who cared about their coverage would have had no choice but to keep a data bucket plan
    Well, personally we were looking at moving our lines to another carrier before they at least offered the safety mode. I had been on a grandfathered unlimited plan, usage was like 1-2GB most months but occasionally 10-12GB, mix of maps, music streaming, and tethering when out of wifi service for a week or so those months. My mom would use virtually 0 but occasionally it would be like 5GB. We really didn't want to risk limited plans in case we'd go over and get huge overages; going over and having to slow your roll for the rest of the month is not as big a deal.

    Unlimited? Yeah, it's revenue. Although, honestly, my use, and my parents, have gone up enough that buying a bucket of data (at the kind of prices they are now) would be much higher than the unlimited plans.

    That said, the big 4 realistically have ceded lower priced plans with lower voice, text, and data limits to prepaid. Although all 4 do also have their own prepaid brands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwertz View Post
    Unlimited? Yeah, it's revenue. Although, honestly, my use, and my parents, have gone up enough that buying a bucket of data (at the kind of prices they are now) would be much higher than the unlimited plans.
    App and site bloat has gotten totally ridiculous, but beyond that, it depends on how much you value what you are doing and whether you are willing to reduce consumption to save money. I know I would, to a point.

    That said, the big 4 realistically have ceded lower priced plans with lower voice, text, and data limits to prepaid. Although all 4 do also have their own prepaid brands.
    Yes, but those also are often depri and have limited or no roaming, both domestic and international, so they are in a bit of a different category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoxFan76 View Post
    Yes, but those also are often depri and have limited or no roaming, both domestic and international, so they are in a bit of a different category.
    We have go unlimited and depri is not really an issue. Of course each area is different. Point being that being subject to depri doesn't necessarily equate to slow speeds. Very few places in the US where Verizon has to roam. International? Lot of people don't travel outside the US. I haven't don't plan too.

    Go Unlimited speedtest taken this afternoon Pixel 2 XL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hagar View Post
    We have go unlimited and depri is not really an issue. Of course each area is different. Point being that being subject to depri doesn't necessarily equate to slow speeds. Very few places in the US where Verizon has to roam. International? Lot of people don't travel outside the US. I haven't don't plan too.
    But when you hit a depri area, it will be painful. Verizon uses a LOT of roaming when you include LTEiRA, which some plans like Visible don't have. Wireless Associates, Thumb Cellular, Bluegrass Cellular, Appalachian Wireless, and Cellcom are just a few LTEiRA carriers that come to mind, and there are many more.

    If you want to never leave the US and actually see the world, then I suppose that international roaming wouldn't matter much to you.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoxFan76 View Post
    But when you hit a depri area, it will be painful.
    Well, from what I've seen deprioritization locally now and then, so I can quantify this a little bit. VZW says to expect typical 4G speeds of 5-12mbps. I've found when speeds on an un-deprioed line are above 6mbps, the deprio'ed line will have similar speeds (I can't say identical, speeds here fluctuate enough, phones several feet apart, and not the same model phone...) If normal is down to like 3-6 mbps or so (maybe 3-5mbps?) the deprioed line gets like 1-2mbps. If normal is like 1mbps that is when the deprioed line will get troublingly slow. Locally, the deprioritized lines slow down a bit around 5PM, and when a football game is in town, even several miles from the stadium, it is slow with occasionally spikes of "very slow"... well, "was"... my phone seems to suggest they've been densifying with band 4/2 sites so maybe not this season.

    I assume long term, VZW will want to speed up those areas with painfully slow deprioritized data since they will also be getting below 5mbps for non-deprioritized users.

    Verizon uses a LOT of roaming when you include LTEiRA, which some plans like Visible don't have. Wireless Associates, Thumb Cellular, Bluegrass Cellular, Appalachian Wireless, and Cellcom are just a few LTEiRA carriers that come to mind, and there are many more.
    True.

    If you want to never leave the US and actually see the world, then I suppose that international roaming wouldn't matter much to you.
    Honestly if I was world travelling I'd probably get one of those T-Mo SIMs, or get a local SIM for whatever country.
    But having that int'l roaming and some data included is real nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwertz View Post
    Well, from what I've seen deprioritization locally now and then, so I can quantify this a little bit. VZW says to expect typical 4G speeds of 5-12mbps. I've found when speeds on an un-deprioed line are above 6mbps, the deprio'ed line will have similar speeds (I can't say identical, speeds here fluctuate enough, phones several feet apart, and not the same model phone...) If normal is down to like 3-6 mbps or so (maybe 3-5mbps?) the deprioed line gets like 1-2mbps. If normal is like 1mbps that is when the deprioed line will get troublingly slow. Locally, the deprioritized lines slow down a bit around 5PM, and when a football game is in town, even several miles from the stadium, it is slow with occasionally spikes of "very slow"... well, "was"... my phone seems to suggest they've been densifying with band 4/2 sites so maybe not this season.
    Great overservations... good to know!

    I assume long term, VZW will want to speed up those areas with painfully slow deprioritized data since they will also be getting below 5mbps for non-deprioritized users.
    I would assume that areas that are de-pri'ed on a daily or seasonal basis would get densified where possible... BUT there are always areas that are just terrible due to a lack of places to put sites or NIMBYs, and there are always one-off or once-yearly events where the network gets slammed.

    Honestly if I was world travelling I'd probably get one of those T-Mo SIMs, or get a local SIM for whatever country.
    But having that int'l roaming and some data included is real nice.
    True.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoxFan76 View Post
    But when you hit a depri area, it will be painful. Verizon uses a LOT of roaming when you include LTEiRA, which some plans like Visible don't have. Wireless Associates, Thumb Cellular, Bluegrass Cellular, Appalachian Wireless, and Cellcom are just a few LTEiRA carriers that come to mind, and there are many more.

    If you want to never leave the US and actually see the world, then I suppose that international roaming wouldn't matter much to you.
    There is the internet if I want to see something. Let me know when they invent the transporter. I have no desire to go through the hassle of flying ever again. I hate TAKING people to the airport.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmtvaquero View Post
    Here we go again, another thread from internet wizards trying to tell a multi-billion dollar business what they're doing wrong.
    To come back on this (as someone who HAS worked for verizon pre and post Vodafone buyout)

    Verizon pre-vodafone buyout was actually much more responsive to building out/fixing issues as Verizon landline management had little hands on say in what VZW did, and they spent pretty much as they pleased.

    THEN Verizon landline bought out Vodafone... well that dug a bit of a debt hole that VZ needed to get out of (that's also about the time hard breaks were applied to any meaningful FiOS rollouts as well, timeline wise)... so then VZ management started pinching everywhere they could.

    Then, came AT&T buying Cricket, T-Mobile buying MetroPCS, and AT&T picking up more supplemental bands to have more capacity... all while Verizon sat on the sidelines not wanting to spend the cash and yelling "NO, WE HAVE ENOUGH FOR YEARS TO COME" when in reality they knew they did not (we had some internal discussions about it, but the kool aid drinkers would hear none of it..as Verizon had "the network" and did not NEED unlimited)

    So essentially a bunch of arrogant management before the european guy stepped in and brought back unlimited has landed them where they are now, and it's sad. But i'm glad to see Verizon knocked down a few pegs, as they really did need it internally.

    I mean hell.. here in Columbus, I have at least six small cells in a 9 block radius around me, and STILL experience congestion at times. AT&T and Sprint have enough mid band, they generally do fine unless it's like crowded wall to wall, and T-Mobile has been kind of lazy, so when it's busy around here it totally turns to T-Maybe as a lot of the buildings rely on 700MHz for LTE.
    Left: Verizon Unlimited LTE, Right: WideOpenWest 500/50

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    To come back on this (as someone who HAS worked for verizon pre and post Vodafone buyout)

    Verizon pre-vodafone buyout was actually much more responsive to building out/fixing issues as Verizon landline management had little hands on say in what VZW did, and they spent pretty much as they pleased.
    Is that across the entire network, or did the resources shift from macro sites and coverage to small cells and capacity due to Verizon's spectrum position?

    THEN Verizon landline bought out Vodafone... well that dug a bit of a debt hole that VZ needed to get out of (that's also about the time hard breaks were applied to any meaningful FiOS rollouts as well, timeline wise)... so then VZ management started pinching everywhere they could.
    I'm not doubting that they cut FiOS somewhere, but where? The big cutbacks happened years before the Vodafone buyout. I don't think they expanded the franchised areas for FiOS after 2008 or so, other than the notorious NYC debacle, even though they have been slowly finishing buildouts in the franchised areas over the years in order to be able to get rid of copper and go 100% fiber for FiOS and POTS. The official line was that FiOS was "frozen", but I know people in MA and RI that were in franchised areas, but whose complex or street wasn't wired that got wired later. That being said, the capacity on the main feeders and switches may already have been in place, so it was just the last few hundred or thousand feet that they built out.

    Then, came AT&T buying Cricket, T-Mobile buying MetroPCS, and AT&T picking up more supplemental bands to have more capacity... all while Verizon sat on the sidelines not wanting to spend the cash and yelling "NO, WE HAVE ENOUGH FOR YEARS TO COME" when in reality they knew they did not (we had some internal discussions about it, but the kool aid drinkers would hear none of it..as Verizon had "the network" and did not NEED unlimited)
    Then why did Verizon take T-Mobile's bait? I don't think AT&T would have offered Unlimited other than the DirecTV bundle if Verizon didn't do it first. UDPs are just a generally bad idea on a wireless network.

    I mean hell.. here in Columbus, I have at least six small cells in a 9 block radius around me, and STILL experience congestion at times. AT&T and Sprint have enough mid band, they generally do fine unless it's like crowded wall to wall, and T-Mobile has been kind of lazy, so when it's busy around here it totally turns to T-Maybe as a lot of the buildings rely on 700MHz for LTE.
    AT&T has a lot of mid-band, but Sprint? They don't have much. They rely mostly on B41 for capacity, which is tough in more suburban/exurban areas where towers aren't spaced for it. It works great in an environment like NYC where it's basically all B41 with high site density.

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    You keep asking why Verizon "took T-Mobile's bait."

    Because they were on track to lose over a million subscribers in a single quarter. Any business that answers to shareholders or a meaningful board can't hand wave that away.

    "We didn't want their money" isn't a valid answer. You can talk about having "The Network" all day long, but if customers are leaving in droves because they want unlimited even they lose service a mile off the highway, then you have to do something to stop the bleeding.

    It's business. Not theoretical mental masturbation on an enthusiast forum. People don't like overages. I rarely use over 5GB a month, and doubt I've EVER used over 10. But I held on to my gUDP until the dying days because I knew exactly how much my bill would be every month and never had to worry about my data being turned off.

    People like that. Blame us consumers for taking T-Mobile's bait if anyone, but Verizon only did what they had to do to stay competitive. In the end, if we get more competition as well as better and more robust wireless networks because they all had to offer unlimited, how is that a bad thing?


    Sent from my iPhone using HoFo

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    Unless you're a shareholder, we should always be happy when these big companies make competitive decisions. Mobile data demand has exploded exponentially since the first iPhone launched in 2007. Cisco does a big report on this that they update every single year. These companies can't act like they were caught with their pants down. They know how much data consumers are using and expect to use. It's their job to keep up with demand or get left in the dust. If they choose not to upgrade and densify their networks, people will switch from the bad user experience. As consumers, we vote with our wallets. With all the new customer promos being thrown around in the last few years, a consumer should be taking advantage of these switcher promos as long as the competing network meets your needs. No point in being a "loyal customer."

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by clonehappy View Post
    People don't like overages. I rarely use over 5GB a month, and doubt I've EVER used over 10. But I held on to my gUDP until the dying days because I knew exactly how much my bill would be every month and never had to worry about my data being turned off.

    People like that.
    This.

    Honestly I think another major factor here is deprioritization -- it gives a hell of a lot of breathing room in network planning.

    Without deprio, you get too many heavy data users on the network, you get widespread speed problems leading to unhappy customers and unhappy phone co. since they have to urgently upgrade these areas.

    If you have depiro, these heavy users get to use all the "excess" capacity they want, and basically just slow each other down while not slowing down regular users (as much, I'm sure the deprio get some nominal percentage of the capacity to keep speeds low rather than totally zero). So you get a bunch of customers unaffected be deprio (who will see speeds get lower in congested areas but hopefully not TOO low), some unhappy customers (if they are depiroed too severely in too large an area or too long a time period each day) but overall allows for a bit more time to get more capacity in. To me, it seems like VZW is doing a pretty good job with this overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwertz View Post
    This.

    Honestly I think another major factor here is deprioritization -- it gives a hell of a lot of breathing room in network planning.

    Without deprio, you get too many heavy data users on the network, you get widespread speed problems leading to unhappy customers and unhappy phone co. since they have to urgently upgrade these areas.

    If you have depiro, these heavy users get to use all the "excess" capacity they want, and basically just slow each other down while not slowing down regular users (as much, I'm sure the deprio get some nominal percentage of the capacity to keep speeds low rather than totally zero). So you get a bunch of customers unaffected be deprio (who will see speeds get lower in congested areas but hopefully not TOO low), some unhappy customers (if they are depiroed too severely in too large an area or too long a time period each day) but overall allows for a bit more time to get more capacity in. To me, it seems like VZW is doing a pretty good job with this overall.
    Or like my friend with GoUnlimited, who randomly has zero data at all (he usually uses 3-5GB/mo) due to his plan being ALWAYS on the low end of the totem pole - I do not think plans like this should exist on postpaid as those set a bad image to those light users that your networks simply cannot handle it.

    And that's exactly how his logic works "If my phone is not working to load google maps now, why should I pay them any more money?" - And he has a valid point. He never even tries to watch mobile video.. literally just things like Waze and occasional spotify and it cannot even handle that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    Or like my friend with GoUnlimited, who randomly has zero data at all (he usually uses 3-5GB/mo) due to his plan being ALWAYS on the low end of the totem pole - I do not think plans like this should exist on postpaid as those set a bad image to those light users that your networks simply cannot handle it.

    And that's exactly how his logic works "If my phone is not working to load google maps now, why should I pay them any more money?" - And he has a valid point. He never even tries to watch mobile video.. literally just things like Waze and occasional spotify and it cannot even handle that.
    Agree. I almost think speed tiers would be better. If you are paying for unlimited data, it should at least be *usable* data. Verizon and their deprio are terrible and literally unusable for anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clonehappy View Post
    You keep asking why Verizon "took T-Mobile's bait."

    Because they were on track to lose over a million subscribers in a single quarter. Any business that answers to shareholders or a meaningful board can't hand wave that away.
    Except that losing a few million subs might have been cheaper than the gazillions in CAPEX that they've had to put into the network building small cells to increase capacity. They had to densify to a certain extent for VoLTE, but if they had kept on tiered plans, they likely wouldn't have needed small cells in all but a few extremely dense areas.

    "We didn't want their money" isn't a valid answer. You can talk about having "The Network" all day long, but if customers are leaving in droves because they want unlimited even they lose service a mile off the highway, then you have to do something to stop the bleeding.
    It would have eventually either balanced out or caused T-Mobile and Sprint's network to become so clogged that people would come back to T and VZ.

    It's business. Not theoretical mental masturbation on an enthusiast forum. People don't like overages. I rarely use over 5GB a month, and doubt I've EVER used over 10. But I held on to my gUDP until the dying days because I knew exactly how much my bill would be every month and never had to worry about my data being turned off.
    The challenge is that the internet and apps are now being created for UDPs and are wasting data, so UDPs have driven consumption way up. If everything was $10/GB, you can bet that apps would be using a teeny, tiny fraction of what they do today.

    People like that. Blame us consumers for taking T-Mobile's bait if anyone, but Verizon only did what they had to do to stay competitive. In the end, if we get more competition as well as better and more robust wireless networks because they all had to offer unlimited, how is that a bad thing?
    I think we have less robust networks. Massive CAPEX has been spent on small cells and densification beyond that needed to have VoLTE coverage. The networks would be better and faster if all data were metered. Although it's tough to make a business model, a pure PPU model like Google Fi would be a better model for mobile data, as it would encourage efficiency. If VZ hadn't taken T-Mobile's bait, then they could have spent way less CAPEX and still expanded rural coverage more, so we'd have bigger, better networks. Unfortunately, many rural areas still have crappy service with tons of dead zones.

    Quote Originally Posted by VisionsDivine View Post
    Unless you're a shareholder, we should always be happy when these big companies make competitive decisions. Mobile data demand has exploded exponentially since the first iPhone launched in 2007. Cisco does a big report on this that they update every single year. These companies can't act like they were caught with their pants down.
    It's mostly induced demand by carriers implementing UDPs in order to chase ARPU. They put themselves into a ponzi scheme of sorts. If they had all charged $10/GB PPU all along, with a base plan for voice/text, the networks wouldn't have these issues but their ARPUs would be much lower, as people would actually minimize data usage. I know I'd use a fraction of the data that I do if this were the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by brad15 View Post
    Or like my friend with GoUnlimited, who randomly has zero data at all (he usually uses 3-5GB/mo) due to his plan being ALWAYS on the low end of the totem pole - I do not think plans like this should exist on postpaid as those set a bad image to those light users that your networks simply cannot handle it.
    They should really get rid of that plan and move those folks to tiered data plans instead of depri, with MVNOs on depri. That makes a lot more sense from a brand perspective. But people want cheap UDPs... and cheap UDPs they get.

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