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Thread: Northern MI T-Mobile buildout has begun!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman414 View Post
    Thanks, very good info!

    All of the 600 only towers on my map are co-located with ATT, VZW, or both.

    On all of these co-located towers ATT and/or VZW DO NOT suffer from ~800+ ms ping times.

    ATT/VZW users on these towers experience ~50 ms ping times and "rural" 4G LTE speeds (~10Mb down / ~5Mb up)...

    So it appears T-Mobile is "going on the cheap" with their back-haul on these 600 only towers. Not cool! If ATT/VZW can offer "normal" 4G LTE performance on these towers, T-Mobile should be doing the same!
    With AT&T/VZW having only ~10Mbps down / 5Mbps up, I suspect that these are probably not 'fiber fed' at the site by a common fiber feed. Can you determine if some/all of these have a microwave link by one or all carriers ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by formercanuck View Post
    With AT&T/VZW having only ~10Mbps down / 5Mbps up, I suspect that these are probably not 'fiber fed' at the site by a common fiber feed. Can you determine if some/all of these have a microwave link by one or all carriers ?
    I would think a number of them are on Enet but depends on what AT&T/VZ has deployed. If one or both only have B12/13 respectively deployed than that wouldn't be uncommon to see that slow of speeds given the number of people that use it for home internet.

    My last trip to Munising, I noticed this too but that was a year and a half ago. I'm sure T-Mobile will get it straightened out. They've greatly improved sites in the northeast lower part of MI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman414 View Post
    Thanks, very good info!

    All of the 600 only towers on my map are co-located with ATT, VZW, or both.

    On all of these co-located towers ATT and/or VZW DO NOT suffer from ~800+ ms ping times.

    ATT/VZW users on these towers experience ~50 ms ping times and "rural" 4G LTE speeds (~10Mb down / ~5Mb up)...

    So it appears T-Mobile is "going on the cheap" with their back-haul on these 600 only towers. Not cool! If ATT/VZW can offer "normal" 4G LTE performance on these towers, T-Mobile should be doing the same!
    You’re likely looking at fiber fed AT&T/Verizon sites and Satellite backhaul for T-Mobile. AT&T’s traffic is routed through Cicero and Verizon is either Bloomington, MN or Chicago, so you will see slightly higher than the normal 20-30ms. The reason they aren’t pushing crazy high speeds is likely because they’re the only usable carriers up there and have higher load on their sites tied in with lack of spectrum deployed. It’s hard to justify throwing a ton of frequencies on rural sites especially seeing as how mid band doesn’t have the propagation characteristics low band does.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeuten View Post
    You’re likely looking at fiber fed AT&T/Verizon sites and Satellite backhaul for T-Mobile. AT&T’s traffic is routed through Cicero and Verizon is either Bloomington, MN or Chicago, so you will see slightly higher than the normal 20-30ms. The reason they aren’t pushing crazy high speeds is likely because they’re the only usable carriers up there and have higher load on their sites tied in with lack of spectrum deployed. It’s hard to justify throwing a ton of frequencies on rural sites especially seeing as how mid band doesn’t have the propagation characteristics low band does.


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    I would tend to agree. If the sites only have enough backhaul for ~ 10Mbps then there's little incentive to put more than 10MHz of spectrum, and use the spectrum that will best suit this purpose. As long as calls go through.. it could be effectively a 'buying time' for any upgrade. I.e. 'maybe' Sprint project will redo some of these... probably not, but maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by formercanuck View Post
    With AT&T/VZW having only ~10Mbps down / 5Mbps up, I suspect that these are probably not 'fiber fed' at the site by a common fiber feed. Can you determine if some/all of these have a microwave link by one or all carriers ?

    I have driven by all of these towers (on my map). Most of them you can drive very close to the base, I have not seen any satellite dishes on these tower sites.

    Long Lake and Goodman are the only two with a microwave antenna (they had the microwave antenna long before T-Mobile co-located on the towers).

    Cavour started with VZW only and T-Mobile co-located. I was driving by the day they were installing the T-Mobile equipment, I saw them running fiber (orange plastic pipe) to the Cavour tower. This site has had ~800+ ms pings since it went online (about 2 years ago).

    So none of this makes sense...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman414 View Post
    I have driven by all of these towers (on my map). Most of them you can drive very close to the base, I have not seen any satellite dishes on these tower sites.

    Long Lake and Goodman are the only two with a microwave antenna (they had the microwave antenna long before T-Mobile co-located on the towers).

    Cavour started with VZW only and T-Mobile co-located. I was driving by the day they were installing the T-Mobile equipment, I saw them running fiber (orange plastic pipe) to the Cavour tower. This site has had ~800+ ms pings since it went online (about 2 years ago).

    So none of this makes sense...
    800ms ping sure sounds like satellite link for data, and probably a few T1 circuits for calls.

    I imagine with SprintNet being owned by T-Mobile now, it's only a matter of time before the cell site has fiber back haul, as Sprint had quite an impressive fiber network of their own. I can imagine T-Mobile tapping into a major fiber hub and doing a microwave "ring" around (for redundancy) as verizon tends to do for super rural sites where they can only get T1 lines ran.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hman414 View Post
    I have driven by all of these towers (on my map). Most of them you can drive very close to the base, I have not seen any satellite dishes on these tower sites.

    Long Lake and Goodman are the only two with a microwave antenna (they had the microwave antenna long before T-Mobile co-located on the towers).

    Cavour started with VZW only and T-Mobile co-located. I was driving by the day they were installing the T-Mobile equipment, I saw them running fiber (orange plastic pipe) to the Cavour tower. This site has had ~800+ ms pings since it went online (about 2 years ago).

    So none of this makes sense...
    Sounds like they probably have these tied back to 'whereever' with fiber... but that 'whereever' has an ugly feed (satellite ?) to the actual Internet. Its possible that they couldn't (yet) get decent backhaul out there, and are as hman414 stated.. filling in until T-Mobile does its big corp rebuild of the network with Sprint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by formercanuck View Post
    Sounds like they probably have these tied back to 'whereever' with fiber... but that 'whereever' has an ugly feed (satellite ?) to the actual Internet. Its possible that they couldn't (yet) get decent backhaul out there, and are as hman414 stated.. filling in until T-Mobile does its big corp rebuild of the network with Sprint.
    This still defies logic...

    Tiny (population ~1,000) and fairly remote Laona, WI has T-Mobile service 30ms ping, 0 jitter, 30 Mb down, 5 Mb up.

    Rhinelander (population ~8,000), biggest city in the Northwoods, economic hub, huge tourist area for people from Chicago/Milwaukee/Madison has T-Mobile service with 1,000ms ping, 50ms jitter, 5MB down, 1 Mb up (if your lucky).

    Rhinelander has had "connectivity" for years, there is NO REASON why T-Mobile should not be able to get proper backhaul connections to the tower(s) it has in Rhinelander.

    Sprint has even had 1900 coverage in Rhinelander for ~20 years now, and has/had proper 4G LTE service.

    You would think T-Mobile would want to put their "best foot forward" in areas like this with so many big city tourists...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman414 View Post
    This still defies logic...

    Tiny (population ~1,000) and fairly remote Laona, WI has T-Mobile service 30ms ping, 0 jitter, 30 Mb down, 5 Mb up.

    Rhinelander (population ~8,000), biggest city in the Northwoods, economic hub, huge tourist area for people from Chicago/Milwaukee/Madison has T-Mobile service with 1,000ms ping, 50ms jitter, 5MB down, 1 Mb up (if your lucky).
    Seeing that these 2 are in different counties brings up an interesting bit... spectrum.
    From what I can see (on the older maps), T-Mobile has native non 600MHz spectrum deployed in a few towns, this one being in a different county. Rhinelander appears to have 600MHz only (probably 10MHz).
    Both from what I can tell are on colocated sites. Leona has AWS 2100 in addition to 600MHz spectrum deployed. This may be BSA/MTA issue (i.e. they don't have license for AWS 2100 in Rhinelander, and the bit of 600MHz they have is mostly for 'show' - FCC regulations on deployment/obtaining Sprint merger approval, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by formercanuck View Post
    Seeing that these 2 are in different counties brings up an interesting bit... spectrum.
    From what I can see (on the older maps), T-Mobile has native non 600MHz spectrum deployed in a few towns, this one being in a different county. Rhinelander appears to have 600MHz only (probably 10MHz).
    Both from what I can tell are on colocated sites. Leona has AWS 2100 in addition to 600MHz spectrum deployed. This may be BSA/MTA issue (i.e. they don't have license for AWS 2100 in Rhinelander, and the bit of 600MHz they have is mostly for 'show' - FCC regulations on deployment/obtaining Sprint merger approval, etc.
    Yes, correct. Forest Co, WI T-Mobile has both 600 and 1700/2100, Oneida Co, WI (where Rhinelander is) has 600 only right now.

    When I performed the test in Laona where I experienced the awesome performance the handset was on 600/5MHz.

    The Laona tower also has 1700/2100/10MHz, performance is similar to 600/5MHz.

    When I performed the testing in Rhinelander, the handset was on 600/10MHz.

    I have called T-Mobile at least 4 times over the last couple of years to open up a "trouble ticket" about this poor 600 performance, never received any replies/updates...

    That is why I use T-Mobile ($10/mo MI Plan) for "fun" and ATT for my "real" phones...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman414 View Post
    ......, there is NO REASON why T-Mobile should not be able to get proper backhaul connections to the tower(s) it has in Rhinelander......
    I just find it amazing that we're now complaining about T-Mobile's data speed in an isolated village in the north of Wisconsin. About 2003, I vowed to stop complaining about T-Mobile's coverage as soon as I could make a call in Chadron, Neb. That wish was fulfilled a few years by a roaming agreement. I still will make suggestions about where to improve coverage but I don't complain.

    T-Mobile has a low-band site in Rhinelander. It's either running all LTE or a mix of LTE and 5G. If any of the sectors is more congested than the backhaul will handle T-Mobile can easily add a lot of mid-band.

    One thing I've considered is if T-Mobile is upgrading sites faster than Ericsson and Nokia can build equipment. It's a thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRNewcomb View Post
    I just find it amazing that we're now complaining about T-Mobile's data speed in an isolated village in the north of Wisconsin. About 2003, I vowed to stop complaining about T-Mobile's coverage as soon as I could make a call in Chadron, Neb. That wish was fulfilled a few years by a roaming agreement. I still will make suggestions about where to improve coverage but I don't complain.

    T-Mobile has a low-band site in Rhinelander. It's either running all LTE or a mix of LTE and 5G. If any of the sectors is more congested than the backhaul will handle T-Mobile can easily add a lot of mid-band.

    One thing I've considered is if T-Mobile is upgrading sites faster than Ericsson and Nokia can build equipment. It's a thought.

    It's not just northern WI having these issues, it's other parts of the USA as well. I'm just using northern WI as an example.

    If you want to talk about isolated areas, look at UP MI. In UP MI T-Mobile has pretty good coverage and performance.

    If UP MI can have "normal" 4G LTE" performance, why can't northern WI as well?

    Also, isn't the whole point of HoFo's to discuss ALL things cellular?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman414 View Post
    It's not just northern WI having these issues, it's other parts of the USA as well. ....
    Well then, look at Brewton/E. Brewton Ala. About the same 8K pops. as Rhineland but no T-Mobile tower and virtually no service at all. I'd love to see Rhineland's lousy service in Brewton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman414 View Post
    It's not just northern WI having these issues, it's other parts of the USA as well. I'm just using northern WI as an example.

    If you want to talk about isolated areas, look at UP MI. In UP MI T-Mobile has pretty good coverage and performance.

    If UP MI can have "normal" 4G LTE" performance, why can't northern WI as well?

    Also, isn't the whole point of HoFo's to discuss ALL things cellular?
    nearly half the UP doesn't have any coverage. And most of the UP is band 71 with some band 12. And that's it. There are some scatter places like Houghton which has some band 4. I have relatives that live in Baraga so I'm at last a little familiar with the area.

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    I've passed through the UP on i75 last summer , and Kinross site was decent as it had b4/12/71. West of there is primarily B71 and some B12. Some of the larger towns/cities have B4. Much of the UP had never built out in the past , as B4 in that much rural area would be only useful in town, and non competitive. They have a ways to go, and this is still better than nothing.

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