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Thread: Ontario reintroduces cellphone consumer protection bill

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjiro View Post
    Fair enough, they do not have the outright price for the iPhones, but they also do not allow you to buy online (or outright as far as I can tell), so in order to get the phone you'd have to go to a dealer and sign up for for a 3 year agreement where the conditions and terms would be presented to you. For all the other phones on their where you can order online, they show you the outright price.
    This is something I would like to see covered in the bill. It should be criminal to require people to sign a contract to get the phone they really want - they also did this with the GS3 and I'm assuming they will do it with the GS4 as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharpieFiend View Post
    This is something I would like to see covered in the bill. It should be criminal to require people to sign a contract to get the phone they really want - they also did this with the GS3 and I'm assuming they will do it with the GS4 as well.
    As much as I don't like being forced into a contract just to get a phone, the reality is that you will always be able to find somewhere where they sell the phones outright.

    The biggest problem I see with buying phones outright is that some companies say that they sell the phone outright regardless of your business relation and then refuse to sell you the phone outright without a service commitment. If your own company can't follow it's own policy, how can customers put any trust in you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjiro View Post
    As much as I don't like being forced into a contract just to get a phone, the reality is that you will always be able to find somewhere where they sell the phones outright.
    This is just wrong on so many levels. This bill is about protecting consumers, so why should people be forced upon some shady dealer at Pacific Mall when they could have got a phone from Rogers? Plus there are so many that (rightly) aren't comfortable in dealing with these people so they'll sign a contract to avoid them.

    Why is it wrong to be able to buy whatever phone I want from whomever I want?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjiro View Post
    As much as I don't like being forced into a contract just to get a phone, the reality is that you will always be able to find somewhere where they sell the phones outright.

    The biggest problem I see with buying phones outright is that some companies say that they sell the phone outright regardless of your business relation and then refuse to sell you the phone outright without a service commitment. If your own company can't follow it's own policy, how can customers put any trust in you.

    Sent from my SGH-I717D using HowardForums
    And that is what happens when the oligopoly controls the hardware sales. When you go to a supposed third party to buy the hardware, it is just a front. The sale is still controlled in the background by the oligopoly. The pricing is probably such that there is no money to be made selling the hardware without a plan and so they force a cell contract on you.

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    I see this bill as giving the carriers a right to make $50 extra when a consumer leaves. The carriers have already seen the writing on the wall and have shifted the cancellation cost from service fee to hardware cost. Without this legislation, the carriers can already say there is effectively no contract cancellation cost, the customer simply has to pay off the remainder of the hardware subsidy that hasn't been written off. To be fair to the consumer, the cancellation cost of the contract should be zero.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharpieFiend View Post
    This is just wrong on so many levels. This bill is about protecting consumers, so why should people be forced upon some shady dealer at Pacific Mall when they could have got a phone from Rogers? Plus there are so many that (rightly) aren't comfortable in dealing with these people so they'll sign a contract to avoid them.

    Why is it wrong to be able to buy whatever phone I want from whomever I want?
    There are plenty of legitimate stores selling phones outright, perhaps the best example I can give in the case of the iPhone is that you can just buy it from the Apple store, for android and BlackBerry phones you can buy from other carriers, legitimate online sites like Canada gsm, newegg, and Google among some of the sites.

    We still live in a market economy, if you don't like something, let the company know and vote with your money, when it hurts their bottom line, they'll notice.

    If you just whine to the government to produce legislation, maybe you'll eventually get some results, but the companies will always find loop holes or other things not covered by legislation, then you are back to square one.

    Smart consumers can make a much bigger impact on the market then the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by will888 View Post
    And that is what happens when the oligopoly controls the hardware sales. When you go to a supposed third party to buy the hardware, it is just a front. The sale is still controlled in the background by the oligopoly. The pricing is probably such that there is no money to be made selling the hardware without a plan and so they force a cell contract on you.
    So you're saying the "oligopoly" (I'm guessing robelus in this case) has complete control over all the 850MHz and 1900MHz HSPA cellphones as well as all the GSM phones (for 2G on rogers/fido)? I mean mobilicity/wind already sell compatible phones with robelus and are not (yet) owned by them, on top of that, there's no way that robelus with their meager 24 million combined customers can control the hardware sales when AT&T has over 100Million in the states and uses the same bands with many of their phones making their way up here.

    Robelus (rogers/fido especially) users are actually in a very powerful position regarding hardware sales as most phones in the world have 850MHz and/or 1900MHz support allowing the import and use of phones from all over the world (look at all the inexpensive Chinese phones you can buy that work here), wind/mobilicity on the other hand are stuck with whatever T-Mobile order they piggyback off of.

    There's no way the manufacturers (such as HTC and Samsung) would allow robelus to keep prices for their phones so high that they weren't competitive with other manufacturers that aren't being sold by robelus (zte and huawei, whether you like it or not put strong pricing pressure).

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    Quote Originally Posted by will888 View Post
    To be fair to the consumer, the cancellation cost of the contract should be zero.
    Why don't we just skip the step of cancellation while we're at it and give the consumer free phones? That is all good and fair right, especially as we all know phones grow on trees...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjiro View Post
    So you're saying the "oligopoly" (I'm guessing robelus in this case) has complete control over all the 850MHz and 1900MHz HSPA cellphones as well as all the GSM phones (for 2G on rogers/fido)? I mean mobilicity/wind already sell compatible phones with robelus and are not (yet) owned by them, on top of that, there's no way that robelus with their meager 24 million combined customers can control the hardware sales when AT&T has over 100Million in the states and uses the same bands with many of their phones making their way up here..
    The cartel extends over the border as well. I should say that it started in the U S initially. This phone subsidy thing is uniquely N Americanish if there is such a term.
    The only phone manufacturer (not quite) that is trying to buck the trend is Google which is pushing for pentaband and unlockable phones. Well. The business case of Google is something else. The worst one is Apple which was still ganging up with AT&T/RBT until just now with very few iphone capable of handling the network of AWS.

    Daniel

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtong22 View Post
    The cartel extends over the border as well. I should say that it started in the U S initially. This phone subsidy thing is uniquely N Americanish if there is such a term.
    The only phone manufacturer (not quite) that is trying to buck the trend is Google which is pushing for pentaband and unlockable phones. Well. The business case of Google is something else. The worst one is Apple which was still ganging up with AT&T/RBT until just now with very few iphone capable of handling the network of AWS.

    Daniel
    Apple is far from the worst. They initially tried 6 years ago to sell the original iPhone without subsidy through retail channels direct to customers. Besides AWS, they've been selling iPhones for many years unlocked direct through retail and online to consumers. I know it's not the phone of choice for everyone but they have made it accessible outside of contracts.

    They also made a very big push with iPads when they launched support a model with 'pre paid' service and easily purchasing data from multiple providers only for when its needed.

    In general I (like I'm sure most here) would love to see most phones available through retail channels and separated from the service you choose to buy. Kind of like TVs or other electronics. Though I did see an ad on telus.com the other day, sign up for 3 years of TV service and get a free 40" TV.. Scary to think TV service providers could attempt to go down the subsidy path..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjiro View Post
    Why don't we just skip the step of cancellation while we're at it and give the consumer free phones? .
    Great idea!!
    And, while we're at it, why not throw in free unlimited service?

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    The best bit is at the end:

    The group representing Canada's large wireless telecommunications service providers issued a statement Thursday discouraging Ontario from proceeding with its proposed legislation.

    "We would encourage the Ontario government to first wait to review the new code from the CRTC before moving ahead with its own regulations, as they said they would," said a statement from the Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association.

    "CWTA and Canada's wireless carriers remain committed to a national code for consumers, providing all Canadians with equal standards, rather than a patchwork of inconsistent provincial regulations."

    The group added that much of what is in the proposed legislation is "already common practice" and that Ontario's proposed bill will be "irrelevant in any case" once the CRTC's national code is in place.
    Gotta love those CWTA flacks, they're always in there pitching for Robelus. The wonder is that it took the Little Three as long as it did to quit the group.

    I have my doubts about the legislation ever being passed before we're into a provincial election. The Ontario Libs probably see introducing the bill as a useful campaign plank to make themselves look good as consumer advocates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by profets View Post
    Apple is far from the worst. They initially tried 6 years ago to sell the original iPhone without subsidy through retail channels direct to customers. Besides AWS, they've been selling iPhones for many years unlocked direct through retail and online to consumers. I know it's not the phone of choice for everyone but they have made it accessible outside of contracts.

    They also made a very big push with iPads when they launched support a model with 'pre paid' service and easily purchasing data from multiple providers only for when its needed.

    In general I (like I'm sure most here) would love to see most phones available through retail channels and separated from the service you choose to buy. Kind of like TVs or other electronics. Though I did see an ad on telus.com the other day, sign up for 3 years of TV service and get a free 40" TV.. Scary to think TV service providers could attempt to go down the subsidy path..
    yeah, as much as I dislike apple, they paved the way for good data rates, and for a device centric model instead of carrier centric

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using HowardForums
    The word 'Pentaband' means '5 Bands', from the Greek word 'pente' meaning '5'. For a phone to be pentaband it has to support 5 bands. If the phone has AWS support, it doesn't automatically mean that it is pentaband.

    Don't send me PMs for questions that can be asked publicly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by underrated View Post
    Great idea!!
    And, while we're at it, why not throw in free unlimited service?

    That's not fair for consumers at all.

    Consumers should be paid for being users of the network. Consider them paid testers

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by profets View Post
    Apple is far from the worst. They initially tried 6 years ago to sell the original iPhone without subsidy through retail channels direct to customers. Besides AWS, they've been selling iPhones for many years unlocked direct through retail and online to consumers. I know it's not the phone of choice for everyone but they have made it accessible outside of contracts..
    Apple's approach is exactly the opposite to that of Google (in making its Nexus line as universally compatible as possible). The Nexus lines of phones is almost GSM world phone not to mention it is pentaband.
    There is no reason why phone owners have to switch phone out of its region or its cell providers.
    Although I do not have firm proof, there are indication that the iphonesof recent years were pentaband except that they were all dumbed down to have the AWS disabled.
    Overall the tone of the legislation is commensurate with what people want.
    In ideal case scenario consumers should be able to switch providers or cross continents without phone change and without major penalty. A small admin fee nonetheless is justified though (say $50 ) which is fair.

    Daniel

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