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Thread: Why would a customer leave Verizon or at&t if they will have the Pre in 6 months?

  1. #46
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    i havent looked into sprint much but i thought that sprint is going wimax in it's next gen wireless and both att and verizon is going LTE right?

    yeah the 7.2 network wont be overnight but guess it's just a repeat of when the 3g iphone came out and they were just going from 2G to 3G but glad they have what seems a clear plan and spending a ton of money on it which only benefits the user over time and unlike going from edge to 3G the upgrades will be used for LTE so once that comes a lot of the network will be done and in meantime increase bandwidth for current 3G... hopefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdasen
    To be fair, there are some questions as to when AT&T will do this and how Sprint will respond. Sprint still hasn't made it clear what they'll do for 4G for handsets. AT&T is saying that they're going to get 7.2Mbps deployed for 2011 and start their LTE upgrade in 2011. So, it isn't 7.2Mbps immediately.

    Sprint's hush-hush nature about their next-generation handset platform bothers me. It leaves a lot of questions in the air about Sprint's long-term competitiveness. Verizon and AT&T have both announced their plans. And those plans aren't rolling out quickly - AT&T expects to have 7.2Mbps running in 370 markets in 2011 and Verizon expects to have about 10Mbps running in 210 markets in 2012. So, it's not as if these things are happening overnight or everywhere. I mean, when did 3G rollouts start? 2004? Still, Sprint just looks bumbling right now - as if they don't realize that they need a 4G platform for voice.

    Really, what will matter is if AT&T can put a new name on it. As long as it's still only 3G, consumers aren't likely to see a difference. AT&T can run all the "it's the fastest" ads that it wants, but people don't treat such claims as reliable.

    I don't think that the network speed is going to be the big issue. Sprint generally has unfavorable views from consumers and if it's available on Verizon and AT&T, people will go there. Hopefully Sprint can turn around its image problem.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdasen
    To be fair, there are some questions as to when AT&T will do this and how Sprint will respond. Sprint still hasn't made it clear what they'll do for 4G for handsets. AT&T is saying that they're going to get 7.2Mbps deployed for 2011 and start their LTE upgrade in 2011. So, it isn't 7.2Mbps immediately.

    Sprint's hush-hush nature about their next-generation handset platform bothers me. It leaves a lot of questions in the air about Sprint's long-term competitiveness. Verizon and AT&T have both announced their plans. And those plans aren't rolling out quickly - AT&T expects to have 7.2Mbps running in 370 markets in 2011 and Verizon expects to have about 10Mbps running in 210 markets in 2012. So, it's not as if these things are happening overnight or everywhere. I mean, when did 3G rollouts start? 2004? Still, Sprint just looks bumbling right now - as if they don't realize that they need a 4G platform for voice.

    Really, what will matter is if AT&T can put a new name on it. As long as it's still only 3G, consumers aren't likely to see a difference. AT&T can run all the "it's the fastest" ads that it wants, but people don't treat such claims as reliable.

    I don't think that the network speed is going to be the big issue. Sprint generally has unfavorable views from consumers and if it's available on Verizon and AT&T, people will go there. Hopefully Sprint can turn around its image problem.
    Just a little correction. Verizon has stressed that they will use LTE just for data and that they will continue using 1x for voice until 2018-2020. Particularly with the new 1x enhancements that give it 3-4x the voice capacity as regular 1x voice, there is no technological reason to upgrade to 1x voice. Plus LTE voice is a bit unsettled right now. Is it going to be IMS or VoLGA?

    Sprint has plenty of time to decide. Before they do anything they need to decide what to do about the IDEN spectrum. With the new 1x voice enhancements, CDMA voice has a long life ahead of it. Their primary goal right now should be to finish rebanding, thicken their CDMA coverage and get some great handsets on their network. They could go to EVDO Rev. B for handset data and WiMax for everything else. Or 1x/Rev A/WiMax on the handset. They might eventually go to LTE but they do no need to be on the cutting edge. Cost to upgrade will go down as the technology matures.

  3. #48
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    When Verizon first announced they were going LTE, everyone said this is good because we can all standardize on LTE. SO WHAT. With Verizon going to a CDMA/LTE hybrid, I don't see any standardization going on. They are just creating a new non-standard.

    If Sprint goes with CDMA/WiMax hybrid, they won't be at any disadvantage because Sprint and Verizon handsets will BOTH still be incompatible with GSM in their most basic form. Granted, Verizon could add GSM compatibility to their handsets, but Sprint and Verizon already do that now. It's just a matter of how much cost do you want to add, how many bands and modes, and for what purpose?

    Small companies like Metro and Cricket already provide custom manufactured tri-band CDMA AWS handsets, so it's not clear that having an oddball handset is much of a competitive disadvantage anymore (if it ever was). 99.9% of users have no concept or desire to port a handset to another carrier anyway.

    If the most cost-effective way for Sprint to provide 4G is via Clearwire/XOHM, than that will drive the requirements for some future Palm pre, regardless of whether its "non-standard". If they need to 4G roam, they can select the most cost effective roaming partner and add that band/mode too.
    Last edited by johncase3; 05-31-2009 at 03:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by donm527
    i havent looked into sprint much but i thought that sprint is going wimax in it's next gen wireless and both att and verizon is going LTE right?

    yeah the 7.2 network wont be overnight but guess it's just a repeat of when the 3g iphone came out and they were just going from 2G to 3G but glad they have what seems a clear plan and spending a ton of money on it which only benefits the user over time and unlike going from edge to 3G the upgrades will be used for LTE so once that comes a lot of the network will be done and in meantime increase bandwidth for current 3G... hopefully.
    Sorta. Sprint is not rolling out WiMAX. Rather, Clearwire which Sprint owns about half of will be rolling out WiMAX. So, is Sprint simply going to become an MVNO of Clearwire in the future? Right now it's fine to simply provide 4G roaming on Clearwire for data cards since there's such limited 4G coverage anyway, but in the future Sprint will have to do something.

    Going the WiMAX route would mean, in the long run, giving up compatibility with Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile and every small regional carrier who will migrate to LTE. That would leave Sprint (again, in the long run) in a Nextel-like situation of no-roaming. And I don't think Sprint can really go for that.

    It's just nice to have a plan. AT&T and Verizon customers know what's coming. T-Mobile customers don't know any dates or specifics, but they know it'll be LTE and compatible for roaming. We just don't know anything. Heck, at this point Sprint is losing more than half a billion per quarter. It would just be nice if Sprint gave us an indication that they were working on turning things around and returning to a competitive position against AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49
    Just a little correction. Verizon has stressed that they will use LTE just for data and that they will continue using 1x for voice until 2018-2020. . .

    Sprint has plenty of time to decide. Before they do anything they need to decide what to do about the IDEN spectrum. . . Their primary goal right now should be to finish rebanding, thicken their CDMA coverage and get some great handsets on their network. They could go to EVDO Rev. B for handset data and WiMax for everything else. Or 1x/Rev A/WiMax on the handset. They might eventually go to LTE but they do no need to be on the cutting edge. Cost to upgrade will go down as the technology matures.
    We'll see what Verizon does. Do you have a source for that? I'm really curious to read. Plans change with time. Verizon clearly isn't going to be shutting off 1x anytime soon since LTE will be in only 210 markets (about 60% of the coverage that AT&T currently has as 3G). I'm guessing here, but I'd say that they'll be using LTE for voice where it's available, but making sure that customers know that they won't be seeing less coverage with a non-1x compatible device. However, I didn't see whatever you're referencing.

    It really depends on how well things go with the LTE rollout. To be frank, Verizon has been inconsistent with their timelines. Sometimes they've even said that they hope to have customers using it in 2009 which definitely changes things.

    With rebanding, again, we see a case where Sprint just seems to be bumbling. Like, do they have any plan? Currently the plan seems to be: sign up a lot of iDEN customers on Boost to cover Nextel and Sprint loses. Without that SMR spectrum for CDMA, they just can't thicken their coverage much.

    You've said that Sprint doesn't need to be on the cutting edge. Why? Why should someone pick Sprint then? Because they have less coverage, customer service that Sprint fans admit is terrible, an older and slower network, a much smaller m2m community, all at a decently comparable price? Companies need to stay competitive or they get left behind. Heck, even offering communication about the future keeps you in the game because it offers a plan and hope. Sprint is losing its edge here and a communicated direction would help them get it back.

    Verizon has converted nearly its entire native network to EV-DO and it's a much bigger network than Sprint's. AT&T is pushing forward with speeds more than double Sprint's. What's Sprint's answer? I'm not saying that they don't have one, but you need to tell your customers. As it stands, they just seem bumbling and when customers make decisions, part of that decision is based on whether one has confidence in the company.

    Verizon does this really well. They have a clear communicated plan. Their plan seems to be, "to hell with money, if we build it, customers will come". And so they go for very broad geographic coverage with technologies on the earliest possible schedule. AT&T seems to want that path, just aren't as good at achieving it. Sprint, on the other hand, just doesn't get this. We all thought that the Nextel SMR spectrum would be used for broad coverage, but Sprint now sees iDEN as a long-term strategic asset. Much like I'm sure the military sees the musket as the next big weapon.

    T-Mobile goes the low-price route. Sprint doesn't want to go that route (other than offering free texting with data plans), but if they don't remain competitive on the network level, that's what will be left for them.

  6. #51
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    One thing Sprint/XOHM has that Verizon doesn't is capacity. Sprints 2500 WiMax band is 3X the size of Verizon's 700 AWS band (60 MHz vs 198 MHz) and the frequency reuse capability on 2500 is far higher than on 700.

    http://www.sidecutreports.com/2008/0...re-wimax-deal/

    Moreover, I don't see what the big deal is. As long as Sprints handsets can roam on LTE, they are as compatible with LTE as they need to be. Just as roaming on 850 cellular makes them compatible with Verizon even though they are a PCS-only carrier natively.

    I am not sure what spectrum Sprint owns which would allow them to run LTE anyway without taking away a proportional amount of EVDO spectrum capacity.

    That said, without a reciprocal roaming partner like Alltel, can Sprint even afford to continue roaming? They might be forced to get stingy with roaming like T-Mobile.
    Last edited by johncase3; 05-31-2009 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdasen
    We'll see what Verizon does. Do you have a source for that? I'm really curious to read. Plans change with time. Verizon clearly isn't going to be shutting off 1x anytime soon since LTE will be in only 210 markets (about 60% of the coverage that AT&T currently has as 3G). I'm guessing here, but I'd say that they'll be using LTE for voice where it's available, but making sure that customers know that they won't be seeing less coverage with a non-1x compatible device. However, I didn't see whatever you're referencing.

    It really depends on how well things go with the LTE rollout. To be frank, Verizon has been inconsistent with their timelines. Sometimes they've even said that they hope to have customers using it in 2009 which definitely changes things.

    With rebanding, again, we see a case where Sprint just seems to be bumbling. Like, do they have any plan? Currently the plan seems to be: sign up a lot of iDEN customers on Boost to cover Nextel and Sprint loses. Without that SMR spectrum for CDMA, they just can't thicken their coverage much.

    You've said that Sprint doesn't need to be on the cutting edge. Why? Why should someone pick Sprint then? Because they have less coverage, customer service that Sprint fans admit is terrible, an older and slower network, a much smaller m2m community, all at a decently comparable price? Companies need to stay competitive or they get left behind. Heck, even offering communication about the future keeps you in the game because it offers a plan and hope. Sprint is losing its edge here and a communicated direction would help them get it back.

    Verizon has converted nearly its entire native network to EV-DO and it's a much bigger network than Sprint's. AT&T is pushing forward with speeds more than double Sprint's. What's Sprint's answer? I'm not saying that they don't have one, but you need to tell your customers. As it stands, they just seem bumbling and when customers make decisions, part of that decision is based on whether one has confidence in the company.

    Verizon does this really well. They have a clear communicated plan. Their plan seems to be, "to hell with money, if we build it, customers will come". And so they go for very broad geographic coverage with technologies on the earliest possible schedule. AT&T seems to want that path, just aren't as good at achieving it. Sprint, on the other hand, just doesn't get this. We all thought that the Nextel SMR spectrum would be used for broad coverage, but Sprint now sees iDEN as a long-term strategic asset. Much like I'm sure the military sees the musket as the next big weapon.

    T-Mobile goes the low-price route. Sprint doesn't want to go that route (other than offering free texting with data plans), but if they don't remain competitive on the network level, that's what will be left for them.
    A quick search:

    http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/...r-data-prices/


    "Speaking at Ericsson AB’s annual capital markets day in Boston on Thursday, Verizon Wireless CTO Tony Melone candidly discussed the future of Verizon Wireless’ network. As has been discussed before, Verizon is on a fast track to roll out LTE over 700MHz. The carrier plans to begin “phase four” trials in a few select markets by the end of 2009, deploy the 4G service commercially in 2010 and rapidly accelerate expansion in 2011 and 2012. As Big Red begins the adoption of LTE, what will happen to its current CDMA and EV-DO offerings? According to Melone, Verizon’s CDMA/1xRTT network is very stable for voice services and will remain in place until 2018 or even 2020. The EV-DO network will have a much shorter life span with its current 3G technology being replaced quickly by LTE. No mention of GSM so it looks like those rumors of Verizon Wireless moving to GSM on the way to LTE are indeed false.

    In some potentially good news for customers, Melone admitted that Verizon will have to lower prices on data services to remain competitive as high speed mobile broadband continues to expand. He stated that “Pricing is inhibiting the growth of this market. Quite frankly, this is likely to change even before LTE.” Hopefully, the other executives at Verizon share his view on data pricing and implement lower prices sooner rather than later. "

    As far as agonizing about things 7-8 years down the road, only us phone geeks do that. The rest of the customers don't.

    As far as what Sprint strategy should be, they need to thicken their coverage wherever they offer service. In a lot of places, they're already there, in others they nedd a lot of work. Now, I'm not advocating rural coverage. There's no money in it. Suburban coverage though is another thing. They need to put up more sites. They also need to finish rebanding so they can have spectrum options when or if they decide to go LTE. That SMR spectrum and the PCS band "G" can look mighty tasty for LTE.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by johncase3
    One thing Sprint/XOHM has that Verizon doesn't is capacity. Sprints 2500 WiMax band is 3X the size of Verizon's 700 AWS band (60 MHz vs 198 MHz) and the frequency reuse capability on 2500 is far higher than on 700.

    http://www.sidecutreports.com/2008/0...re-wimax-deal/

    Moreover, I don't see what the big deal is. As long as Sprints handsets can roam on LTE, they are as compatible with LTE as they need to be. Just as roaming on 850 cellular makes them compatible with Verizon even though they are a PCS-only carrier natively.

    I am not sure what spectrum Sprint owns which would allow them to run LTE anyway without taking away a proportional amount of EVDO spectrum capacity.

    That said, without a reciprocal roaming partner like Alltel, can Sprint even afford to continue roaming? They might be forced to get stingy with roaming like T-Mobile.
    They have voice roaming deals until 2014 with Verizon and 2016 with Alltel which will be honored. They have data roaming deals with Alltel until 2016.

  9. #54
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    Clearwire will be the source for wiMax mostly, but let's not forget that Intel, Google and Comcast also have stake in wiMax. Intel has already been adding to some chipsets and Comcast is Clearwire-provided WiMax.

    http://www.informationweek.com/news/...leID=215900810

    There is a market push for WiMax service. It appears hat Sprint is banking on an established base before LTE is even available. Realize that the big businesses that will use this type of stuff won't change what they already use over night. It will take while to get them on board to WiMax. If they make that leap, it will take while to get them over to LTE if they are not happy with WiMax service. Plus before and service level agreements are signed, you have to have the service available. It will be a few years before LTE gets moving anywhere. WiMax is here now and will have an established base before LTE even gets here. Anyone that doesn't realize this is makes a difference is not understanding how it works in business. This is bigger than just fast smartphones for people's pockets and earholes.
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  10. #55
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    Sprint to introduce trimode 4G phone in 2010

    Sprint Nextel (NYSE:S) will offer a tri-mode phone compatible with CDMA, WiFi and WiMAX and may expand 4G coverage to cities not previously disclosed, a spokesperson told Unstrung. She said the company has not announced specific timing or other details, but they should have a 4G phone on their map for 2009-2010.

    http://www.mysmartrend.com/briefs.as...90601&story=26

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49
    They have voice roaming deals until 2014 with Verizon and 2016 with Alltel which will be honored. They have data roaming deals with Alltel until 2016.
    What I meant by reciprocal, was that Sprint and Alltel were swapping roaming minutes so the cost cancelled out. When former Alltel customers upgrade their PRL, they will probably no longer be roaming on Sprint and Sprint will have to buy all their Alltell network access from Verizon.

    Moreover, the divested Alltel CDMA markets are going to GSM so Sprint will either have to add capacity, lose coverage, or buy even more roaming from Verizon towers.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49
    They have voice roaming deals until 2014 with Verizon and 2016 with Alltel which will be honored. They have data roaming deals with Alltel until 2016.
    Thanks for the info. I have no 3G with Sprint and I roam on Alltel for 3G. This is good news.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by johncase3
    What I meant by reciprocal, was that Sprint and Alltel were swapping roaming minutes so the cost cancelled out. When former Alltel customers upgrade their PRL, they will probably no longer be roaming on Sprint and Sprint will have to buy all their Alltell network access from Verizon.

    Moreover, the divested Alltel CDMA markets are going to GSM so Sprint will either have to add capacity, lose coverage, or buy even more roaming from Verizon towers.
    Verizon has to provide that roaming capability in the divested markets. Sprint has a decision to make with regards to roaming, They will probably reduce the allowable roaming minutes> if you're roaming that much, then you need to go to Verizon.

  14. #59
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    Thumbs up

    I currently am on my 5th iPhone 3G with AT&T and can barely make a call without it dropping. It's not the phone's fault, as Hofo people with iPhones in Canada and Europe don't even know what a dropped call is.... I drop at least 3-5 a day.

    I will gladly switch to a network that many of my friends have, and they can't remember the last time they dropped a call (it just works in Austin). Also, with so few customers on their network, you get a huge portion of their unclogged pipeline (can't say that on AT&T or Verizon!).

    AWS frequencies, LTE and 2010-2011 will really mix up the fun. Until then, I'll be very happy with a Palm Pre on Sprint without dropped calls.

    Oh, and you can freaking multitask, send MMS, and integrate apps with your calendar..... right out the door with V1.0!

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